In the Paper

Stuart: Foreign. Welcome to another episode of the Book More Show. It's Stuart here and pleasure to be joined by Betsy Vaughan. Betsy, how are you doing?

Guest: I'm fantastic. It's great to be back with you. It's been a while.

Stuart: Yeah, it's been a while. This is the not quite so weekly weekly show looking at everything to do with getting your book out there. So it's. But this one's going to be a good one. So we were going to do a a, a Q and A show but I was at my parents last weekend actually, not my parents, Lucy's parents. So we were across there and I never read a Sunday paper but they had. I don't know if it's the same in the States, but in the UK the Sunday papers in the UK are sort of five inches thick with about 25 different sections and all sorts of they the same. Yeah.

Guest: So in one of the £12 exactly.

Stuart: Yeah. I can remember as a kid having a newspaper round and the biggest pain was having the Sunday delivery service because you had to go back to the news agents about three times because it's just physically impossible to carry them all. And where I grew up in, in North Wales there were a lot of kind of small little country cottages and a couple of the houses particularly had letterboxes so small you could barely get a letter through them, let alone one of these doorstop papers. So that was always one of the delivering Sunday papers. Anyway, there you go. Flashback. So in the Telegraph at Lucy's parents place there was, as I was flicking through one of the segments, I saw the only direct response ad that I'd seen through the newspaper. So I've heard Dean talk about this a few times as well. We tend to look through papers and kind of skip past the news and look at the ads rather than, I guess a lot of other people skip past the ads and look at the news. But this one still stood out. So this particular newspaper is a big broadsheet newspaper. So a large kind of double spread newspaper. This ad that I'm going to include an image of this in the, in the show notes. So head over to the 90minutebooks.com podcast and I'll include an image so you can follow along at home and see what we're talking about. But this half page ad really stood out as a direct response ad and addition to that, it stood out because it was a book ad. So rather than the regular show that we were going to do, I think it makes it be a great example a real kind of real life Use case for people. As we run through this and look at what these guys are doing to use their book as lead generation piece, tie it in with the early stages of the eight profit activators that we talk about a lot to see the kind of behind the scenes look at the framework at which they're using. We'll pick up on a couple of the main bullet points and look at what, what is it seemingly working for for these guys. Kind of break it down a little bit. All with the, all with the ide of thinking about it for your book and how you can use this as a. How you can use the book in a particular funnel for your business to help identify those invisible leads. How does that sound?

Guest: That's fantastic. I'm excited about this.

Stuart: And it's definitely a question we get a few times, isn't it? We've talked about it and we've had a few calls with, with people in the early stages of their book talking about how they're particularly going to use it. So I think on the show in the past we've had the example of people talking about Amazon listings particularly we had a great show with Lisa Sassovich, one of the early episodes where she was talking about it as a real lead into an existing funnel that's already in place. We had the show with Kevin Craig a couple of episodes ago where he was, he was talking about the example where he really almost wrote the book just because so many people had been asking him about his particular business. So it was almost just a way of getting his thoughts down. But then in sharing that book with people that had really turned into a whole different coaching side of his business that hadn't, they hadn't particularly considered before. So I think this example, and we'll do a future one as well on Facebook specifically I think, because that's an interesting strategy. But this one is really going to be interesting for people who are looking to target entirely cold leads. So this isn't an audience that you've already got some communication with. These aren't people who necessarily know what you do already or even know you. This is really targeting absolutely cold traffic. And a newspaper ad is the coldest of the cold. You really don't know who those people are going to be that are reading it. It's very difficult to demographically target it to a certain group of people. So it is quite broad. It really is targeting a broad swathe of people with something that hopefully will be of interest to the people who you're trying to target. And then they'll self select themselves and raise the hand because what we write is, is something that's compelling. So I know it comes up a lot with conversations that you have with people. They talk about coming on board in the first place, but then thinking about where it's going to and how people are using it in, in a real life context. Some of the, some of the people that, that we talk with, I don't think print ads ever particularly. I can't think of examples specifically where people have talked about print just because it's such a, it's not the thing, it's not the new shiny object that people have got front of mind. Can you think of an example? I can't at all.

Guest: You know what, I really can't. I mean, typically when I'm talking to, you know, a client or potential client, it's all about, you know, the website and it's drawing traffic there or you know, it's all digital stuff. Nobody ever, I don't think ever has mentioned to me, you know, about a print ad. And we, we know other people have done it and Dean talks about it, but as far as our clients, we haven't, we haven't heard that. And I know we've talked about it as it is from a business standpoint a little bit more, but not anybody that we speak to. It never comes up.

Stuart: Yeah, it's interesting is that I think print, like direct response print media, so postcards. We do a lot on the real estate side of the business with postcards because we're specifically trying to target a geographic area, so a particular zip code or a particular subdivision. So it's easy to conceptual terms of print media and getting something in someone's hands. I think there's definitely an opportunity because it's a medium where not many other people are looking at. So I think there's definitely an opportunity to get something in front of people in a way that not many other people are. As I say, the Daily Telegraph, which is the paper that they had huge paper, five or six different sections. Having seen this ad, I then looked through this section which was the main part of the paper, and two of the other sections as well. And in the whole paper, this was the only direct response ad that I could see. There was a fair number of other ads, like the typical advertising type of ads or for a particular product or service or I'm just looking through now the piece that I've got that I stolen from their house when I left. So there's. So this particular ad is for Stair Lifts. So we'll get into the details in a minute. But this is for stairlifts. So just looking through, there's another ad on another page for health insurance. There's another one actually another stair lift ad in the paper. There's another one for. There's a full page one here for some kind of revival thing which just looks weird, but all of them are advertising specific products. There's like a discount coupon for $50 off this particular product. There's schedule and appointment type ads, but this is the only one that's, that's direct response. What's interesting is this is a big national run newspaper. A half paid ad or on the other page is full page ads. That can't be. The rates I'm assuming must have fallen quite substantially for this to. This to work out. So I think the point being that there is an opportunity, I think in print to be a little bit more targeted than just going after what everyone else is going for, which as you said is primarily digital. So definitely something that should be looked at. I was talking with one of our clients, Hank, last week or the week before. He was talking about there's print media in his area that is specifically tied to subdivisions. So there's quite a large retirement community in his area and he has opportunity to print into their magazine. I know with the yacht broker side of the business we've run print ads into specific publications. So there's niche specific publications. It doesn't have to be as generic as a national newspaper. But I think there's definitely opportunities, particularly if you get the timing right. So newspapers have got ad cycles and print runs. They're trying to hit their own targets. It's definitely an opportunity to speak to someone as deadlines are approaching or time it right so that they'll be more interested in getting a deal than they perhaps would have been another time. So I think it's definitely a cost effective or there's opportunities to get a cost effective ad in front of people in a as targeted way as you can. Okay, so there we go. That's a lot of the background. Now as I say, if you head across to anyone listening to this, if you head across to 90minutebooks.com podcast020 so episode 20 of the book More show, then we'll include an image of the ad here so you can follow along and see exactly what we're talking about. But let's get into it and break down some of the things that people are that these guys particularly are doing well and talk about how Someone listening to this can use it in their own business.

Guest: All right, okay.

Stuart: So half page ad, relatively big type. There's some bullet points that are standing out. Some of the key things are written in red. There's a Stairlift Secrets Revealed stamp across the front of the ad. So it's definitely eye catching. Stands out from the rest of the five column print media. The book itself that they're offering is called Stairlift Revealed or the Secrets of How to get the Best Deal on a Stairlift Revealed. It's actually, I was looking just before we were talking it. I don't think it's actually run by a stairlift manufacturer. I'm kind of taking this on face value. I haven't kind of tried to dig into the background or do too much analysis. It was the ad itself that we wanted to talk about, but it looks like this company is, this offer is being run by a lead generation company that are then selling the leads onto actual manufacturers. So this is a great example we were talking about. It might have been in the book titles workshop that we did not so long ago. We were talking about this separation of your own business and the job of work of the book. So the job of work of the book is to, in this context is to get invisible prospects to raise their hand and identify themselves as interested. It's not a brand advertising piece for your business. It's not that you're trying to do an authority building piece as well, although there's an element of that. So this isn't so much about you. This is like Robert Collier says, that intersecting a conversation that's already going on in their mind, joining the conversation that's already going on in their mind. So what we're looking for here is a title that resonates. The title being the thing that gets people to. Catches their attention and gets people think, ah, yes, that's for me, a title that resonates with the conversation that they're already having. So this one being the secret of how to get the best deal on a stairlift revealed is going to resonate with people who are already looking for stairlifts.

Guest: Right.

Stuart: It's not that you're, it's not talking about the manufacturing process or it's not talking about. It's not trying to be too clever, it's not trying to be. It's trying to do exactly what it says on the tin. It's trying to be very specific and use the language of the customer, not necessarily use internal language. So it's not trying to say here's the five differences between stairlift models or how to pick the best. How to pick the best type of stairlift. The assumption is that one of the. For the conversation that's already going on in this person's mind, the pricing element, the best deal element, is in their view, the thing that resonates the most. So that's the first interesting fact. The fact that the, the title and the COVID and the headline on the ad are all consistent with intersecting this conversation and that is or could be completely separate from your business itself. It's a little bit of a nuanced difference. I'm not sure whether I'm explaining in the quite the clearest way. Does it make sense? The point I'm trying to get across? The fact that the thing that you're trying to get people to raise their hand for is related to your business but doesn't have to advertise your business or yes.

Guest: To make complete sense. Yeah.

Stuart: Yeah. Another example that again that Dean uses quite a lot is the adult acne cure. So Luba Winter's book. So the device that, that she has is for skin care. It uses red and blue lights and, and uv. Forget the details of it. But the book titled the Adult Acne Cure intersects the conversation that's going on in their mind. It's kind of a stage removed from the technical elements of the device or what the device is. It's kind of promising a solution that matches a conversation that's in the mind of a customer of your customer who is likely to be having that conversation. So that was another example. Okay, so moving down then, there's. There's quite a bit of copy on the ad, but it's broken down. It's kind of on a bluish background. The, the main key points are highlighted in red and the call to actions in red. It's very obvious just as you're glancing over it, it's very obvious some of the key catchphrases or the key terms that again, are going to be in someone's mind as they're thinking about it. So the copy goes on to read, then discover inside and then there's five bullets. So discover inside how to buy a good reconditioned stair lift. Actually, I've just noticed there's a bit of a typo on the ad. So this is discover inside how to buy a good reconditioned stairlift and then a question mark that it's a statement, it's not a question. So that question mark probably shouldn't be there. So again, this goes Back to we get this conversation a kind of a qualitative. People will often ask, oh, what if there's a mistake? In my book, I think that comes from the frame of mind of kind of traditional publishing where once the machines have started rolling, it's, that's it, 10,000 books are going to be produced. So the fact that on the very first slide of this ad that's running in a national newspaper, there's a typo, it really does, it doesn't affect it. It doesn't impact the, doesn't really impact the credibility, it doesn't impact the effectiveness of the ad. It's out there doing its job better than not being out there not doing its job. Okay, so discover inside how to buy a good reconditioned stairlift. Could renting be a cheaper option? How to qualify for a tax exemption, how to qualify for a free grant. And again, there's a question mark on the back on the bottom of those two. And what are the best models? What are the best makes and models? So those five main points are probably going to be the five most pressing questions or concerns in the reader's mind. And we talk about this quite a lot in terms of the outline, the, the chapter headings, the way we structure the book in the first place, say to people to try and answer one question, one subject as deeply as possible. And these elements of this is maybe slightly, I don't know, maybe not. This might be slightly broader than I would suggest, but it, I think it's still does a great example. But those five main points, the five main questions, the five main bullets, the five headlines, the talking points that call out on the ads, that really goes to build the chapter headings and the structure of the book. Because the aim that we're trying to do is get this whole conversation congruent around this one question that you're trying to answer. So the one question is the one thing in the reader's mind that's the most pressing, the thing that's likely to get them to raise their hand. It's reflected in the title, it's reflected in the chapter headings, it's reflected in the content. And then when we get to the end, it's reflected in the call to action, what to do next. Because as much as possible, we're trying to help people complete this one thought and give them the certainty or the surety or the very clear next steps, the answer to the question, the resolution. We're trying to guide people all down this path towards the call to action and the Call to action typically then being take the next step with me. The next step of the process is this and we can do this together. So this kind of consistent view all the way through is reflected in this ad. It kind of highlights the main pressing questions. So going on below that, the subheading to the ad is this unique insider's guide could save you a great deal of money. Firstly, do you need to stell lift at all? We help you make that assessment. We also show you how to buy a stair lift. It's just as important as one. We also show you. Oh, sorry, I thought that was another typo, but it's me. I just can't read. It finishes. We also show you how you buy a stair lift. It's just as important as what you buy. So this is talking about the tax exemptions and the grants. So really quite a comprehensive, compelling subheading to. Yes, the. The title has got me to stop. So far the title of the book has resonated with the conversation that goes into my mind. The subheading or in this case the kind of first paragraph of the text is the kind of reinforcing that yes, I'm in the right place. I have these questions and this is going to provide the answer. Okay, I need to take a quick drink because otherwise I'm going to go very croaky for the last few minutes of the. For the course.

Guest: Sorry. I was caught up in it, you know, I'm looking at, you know, looking as someone who I have to self. Admittedly I don't read the paper that often. We do get the paper on Sundays here at my house. But I probably look at it, you know, maybe I'll be honest, I look at the ad for the inserts for the stores and stuff, the big ads. And so I occasionally I'll see something, you know, with the. Just like the little box here to fill it out, cut it out, put it. And it says, you know, put it in the post and send it off. And which I wonder how that draw people, you know, in today. We're so quick to want, you know, we want that instant gratification. And there is a website on here, but there's this whole. It's a pretty significant box saying I'm going to fill this out and cut it out and send it in, you know, when my nature, my generation, I think and those younger than me are more apt to let me just see what this is about online, you know, and for the website, you know. But a stairlift I would assume would be, you know, Sort of guided maybe towards an older generation that might, may not jump on their computer as quick as some of us, you know.

Stuart: So that's an interesting point because it's so easy to get caught up in your own framework and kind of the default way you think about things is just the way you process it yourself. I think you're absolutely right. The demographic of the people who read a newspaper, full stop. I mean as I say, this paper was at Lucy's parents place and they're in their 70s, so I can't remember the last time I bought a newspaper. So it's probably already slightly self selecting. It's slightly conservative newspaper. So maybe. And they're slightly more, I'm gonna stereotype terribly here, but probably a slightly more affluent target market. So there probably is an element of self selecting but that, that point as people say. If you go take a look at the image in the, in the show notes, actually I'll see if I can put it in the show notes on the podcast feed as well. So if you're listening to this on a podcast player, just check in the, in the display. I'll see if I can add it in there. But you're right, maybe a third. No, not a third, A sixth of the page is this, is this name and address cutout where people can physically mail it. There's also a free phone number on here as well which says for your free Insiders guide, call us on 0800-BLAH-BLAH BLAH. Lines are open from 8am to 8pm or actually 8am to 8pm Monday to Friday and 10am to 4pm on Saturday and Sunday. So they definitely don't want to make it too convenient for people. But that's probably a manned phone line rather than a free recorded message. And then this website, the website as well. It's interesting to think about your audience group to see what is more likely to resonate with them rather than just taking it granted that everyone wants to go online or would leave their details on a free recorded message, potentially giving them the mail in option because people might feel more comfortable with it. This is a physical book that they're sending rather than the digital version of it. So that makes a difference as well. The whole narrative, the whole kind of journey around dealing with physical mail is I'm hoping would be consistent for them. So what I would expect when you opted in here is to receive the book but with receive with it a whole load of supporting material. So potentially testimonials, potentially chart based data talking about cost differences. You could Potentially include a handwritten note or a pseudo a note that looks like it was handwritten to give it a little bit more personal connection to it. I definitely expect that there was follow up mail to be sent to these people afterwards. Honestly, like I said, I think this ad is being run by a lead generation company rather than a manufacturer.

Guest: Yeah, just.

Stuart: It's just the way it looks. So I wouldn't be surprised if the the mailing list was then cross sold for other things as well which are not entire a fan of. But. But that's probably going off subject a little bit. So I would definitely expect that the majority of this follow through is physical rather than electronic and depending on what your industry is then that might make perfect sense. Again, going back to the real estate example that I was talking about before, we do a lot of physical mail into that space. Following up with people when they opt in for one of the area guides, we encourage the realtors to follow up with a monthly a monthly depending on how they came in a monthly buyers or sellers newsletter with recent comps that are on the market in that area. Some we've got 12 newsletters that are written throughout the year that highlight one particular seasonally specific element to do with house buying or house sales. A list of new sales that come in the market in the area Price analysis regularly follow up with these people. So depending on your business is then that might make perfect sense as well to follow up again to use this as a profit number two step to use it to identify invisible leads and then plug that into a follow up campaign that keeps engagement with people afterwards. And I think the congruency of that conversation if people opt in electronically, then follow up electronically. If they opt in physically or request something physical, then follow up physically as well. Because I think that that to a certain degree, particularly if you give people options, the option that they select highlights a preference. So again there's no one right answer in any of this. But I think it's a good way of thinking about it a little bit more orchestrated rather than dropping everyone into the same funnel, being able to sift and sort them slightly into different preferences, different requirements, different time frames, different agendas. For example, this tear off. Please send me the free guide tear off with the name and address. There's also a phone number a phone number option in here as well. So if people were to include that information then they're more likely to be open or receptive to reading things through that channel. There's also so on the tear off there's a mandatory Name, address and phone number. And then there's an optional date of birth, cell phone number and email address. So again, it could be an indication if people fill in all of those boxes rather than just the bare minimum boxes, it could be an indication that those are hotter prospects rather than colder prospects. Again, no one right answer. That might not be the case, but it's definitely worth thinking about and orchestrating the responses a little bit. Coordinating the responses a little bit based on what comes back in.

Guest: Yeah, you just said something. I completely lost my train of thought because I was reading at the very bottom of this ad where the information we will send to you, it's showing that it is a third party lead generator because it's saying, I have to apologize, my eyes are not that great. So. But if you do not wish to receive third party marketing information by mail, phone or otherwise, please advise. And it's very small, you know, and so I'm looking at it on here to say like to advise.

Stuart: Yeah, I know. So that's what like you. That I think is what made me think it was a third party lead gen company that's doing this. Because there are data protection requirements that mean you must give people the opportunity to opt out, but not actually giving them the opportunity on the form is a little bit. It, it's, it's not the nicest. But I think the fact that, you

Guest: know, like we told you had the option to say.

Stuart: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Please Advise on the 50th piece of.50th phone call we, we phone you with. The interesting thing though is it goes back to the. As we started the conversation talking about the opportunity to get people to raise their hand is separate from what your business actually does. So the fact that a Legion company, and it'll be interesting to see how broad these guys are, they might just be a Legion company for a multitude of things aimed at seniors. And this is just one of their Legion funnels to identify that group. So they might actually be selling. I'm sure it's not, but I'm just trying to come up with a silly example for the sake of the illustration. But these guys may actually be ranch home builders. They might be a building company that specializes in ranch homes with accessibility features. And what they're actually doing is trying to identify their target audience. And their target audience is people who are having difficulty in getting around a home with stairs. So to highlight that example of the Legion piece that you. The way you get invisible prospects to raise their hand doesn't necessarily need to be specifically to do with your business. Difficult for people to conceptualize. I've had a lot of conversations where it's really quite a challenge to kind of articulate that point in a clear way. So this, I might use this as an example going forward, but let's assume that was the case. These are ranch owned builders specializing accessibility features and they're thinking to themselves, okay, well I have everyone here. If I just try and advertise to people who like ranch homes, then that might be missing the subset of that group which is really the accessibility element of it. But I know that almost 100% of my customers, anyone that wants a stairlift is going to be in that demographic. There are people who by the very nature are struggling to get around their home because they need assistance in getting up the stairs. So to provide them with this guide on day one and then on day five, send them something talking about the accessibility of ranch homes. Now obviously it's a big subset of people below that who would then be looking to build a new home. And again, I mean this was just for the example of the illustration, but that separation of the job of work, of the lead generation piece versus what you actually do and what you might traditionally think of as I need to write a book to, to demonstrate my expertise in very much the industry that I'm absolutely working in, that doesn't necessarily need to be the case. And I think there's a lot of opportunity for people to think that one ring out from that core, core set of knowledge that you could provide into the minds of the customers and what is the conversation that they are having and how can I provide help in an answer to that conversation in order to, to compel people to raise their hand. So you know, I just looked at the clock and we're actually, we've just gone past 30 minutes so this is, yeah, it goes quick and you know, that's so much the case, isn't it? So I think what I'm going to do. There's a couple of points I just wanted to raise on the, on the ad. Again, if people listen to this. If you head across to 90minutebooks.com podcast 020 for episode 20 or just search for episode 20 and then we'll have a copy of the ad so you can see exactly what we're looking at now as we, as you listen along, I'll try and put it in the podcast notes as well. For the podcast players there's a couple of the points, but there's comments available on the website. So if anyone's got any questions about this or some of the slightly broader topics that we're talking about, the kind of the next. The next step in the process, leave a comment on the website or shoot an email to us at podcastyminutebooks and we'll wrap it up into one of the future Q and A shows. The last couple of things I just wanted to pick up on specifically about this ad is one, there's a sticker or the image of a sticker over the book that says free guide worth 4.99. So it gives it a monetary value to give the impression of there's a saleable number associated with it. So it's not just a free guide and it's free. It's a free guide, but it has an intrinsic value if the product were to be sold. So I think that's always an interesting one. It's difficult to work in. I think it works quite well in this print ad because there is a space on here for a sticker like a banner over the top saying Free Guide. Digitally it's difficult to work in because people just don't attribute value to digital products as much as I think it works well in the context of print because it just seems to be more consistent with the model whether that will change over time as people don't have that connection. But I think at the moment it works quite well. So if anyone is thinking about running a print ad, it might be worth trying to incorporate that element. The other option is the other point to raise is the word free. So the fact that it's a free guide. Some of the digital assets that we create for people as part of the 90 minute book process, we create some banners and a couple of examples people can use for images. The landing page that we create for people as well as part of the we create a free Gogo client trial for people so that they've immediately got a landing page and we default to free book on the banner logo on the top of it all. Some people have an issue with the word free because they see that it cheapens something. But we've kind of tested it again across the real estate business and high end real estate target markets. We've done it in the yacht business as well. The word free resonates with everyone across the board. So I wouldn't necessarily discount that if you're thinking that you'd want to avoid the word free. I think there is something that is still eye catching regardless of how high the target market is. The other one that I wanted to Raise is on the COVID of the book and on the ad there's like a little pop out which on the COVID of the book it says the title. So the secret of how to get the best deal on a stale if revealed plus how you could get a free grant. And then on the ad as well, there's another highlight pop out box in red saying plus how to get a free grant. So I think that that mental concept of adding on the value of adding something additional. We often get people coming in and wanting to write a book that's very comprehensive and covers lots of different things and they want to include A through Z, everything they could possibly imagine want to include in the book. And there's two words of warnings that we always have for people who are thinking that one is just scope. The more you put in there, the less likely it is that you're going to ever get this thing finished because it just becomes a big headache to comprehensively include a wide range of information into something. The overhead of actually writing it in the first place or getting the content in the first place and then editing it in a way that makes it coherent all the way through, very, very challenging. So I would always advise being as specific as possible and don't get drawn into being go a mile deep in an inch wide wide rather than a mile wide and an inch deep on everything. The other element, which is more of a kind of psychological element. And we should talk as well about the Robert Cialdini's new book Pre Suasion, one of the podcasts I did with Dean not so long ago, well, last year now we talked about it briefly but. But these psychological triggers that are pretty ingrained in everyone, these persuasion techniques, utilizing some of those is quite interesting. But this particular point then is talking about here's the book plus how to get a free grant. Now we'd already said in the bullets that the grant elements, how you qualify for free grant is part of the book anyway. But highlighting it as a plus, highlighting it as either an additional chapter, like a bonus chapter chapter, or an additional piece of content that you include in the, in the mailing or the email that you send with people rather than including everything actually in the book, if there's something that you can name and ring, fence and have separately as an additional asset for the same amount of work is actually a big win in terms of piling on the value and adding, adding additional things to the thing that's being opted in for. It's the kind of, it's the bonus culture of it Seems like you're giving someone more even though you fully intended to give it to them in the first place. So I think there's. We should maybe do a separate show on that as well because I've just looked at the clock again. We're storming towards 45 minutes now. But, but this, this concept of not including everything in the one thing, being able to follow up on it and, and add additional value by packaging slightly different way. There's a lot of that makes the boat go faster again, to use one of Dean's phrases, it's a way of adding additional bang to the book without necessarily having to add additional work at the end of you creating it. There we go.

Guest: There we go. I think we could probably talk about it, you know, another, another 30 minutes, if not longer, you know.

Stuart: Yeah, definitely. And I think this, it's a, it's a reminder to get back on a more regular, regular schedule with the shows. So we've got a lot of information that we get to share with people, but it tends to be, we do it far too much one on one with people on, on calls at the moment. So it's, it's good to get some of this out to the wider audience audience and hopefully it's given people something to think about that they might not have seen in another setting, another scenario. And hopefully it's an easy one for people to start thinking about. Okay, well, how can I use this in my market? So again, thanks for everyone's time. We'll put links to an image of the ad so that people can follow along in the show notes. Any questions or follow up or points you want us to elaborate on, either leave a comment, comment on the show notes page or send us an email to podcast 90 Minute Books and we'll be back next week with a show and then a couple of weeks down the track, I'm sure we'll pick up on this again and dive into it in some more detail.

Guest: That would be great. I'm going to do a little research on my Sunday paper this week and just kind of see what's out there as far as these kinds of things in our paper. I'm such a digitally minded person, so, so I'm curious, you know, and see what I can find so we can maybe talk about that next time as well. See how much is actually out there for us.

Stuart: Yeah, yeah, that'd be good. See if it's the same on that side of the pond as well.

Guest: Right, right, Absolutely. Yep. Well, thank you for having me.

Stuart: Okay, Betsy, pleasure. As always. Thanks again. And, everyone, thanks for listening. We'll catch you next, Sam.