Transforming Commercial Spaces with Jim Richardson

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Stuart: Welcome to another episode of the book More Show. It's Stuart Bell here and today joined by Jim Richardson. Jim, great to have you here.

Jim Richardson: Thanks, Stuart. Good to be here.

Stuart: So, Jim, the last couple of episodes we've done have been with books that have been finished for some time. Jim's in a slightly different position, just kind of coming to the final stages of wrapping up. So I think today's going to be an interesting, interesting conversation because we're going to talk about the opportunity and what the plan is going forwards and then we can check back in a couple of months. So why don't you start by giving the listeners a bit of background on the, on your story in the company and what you do because this is quite unique compared with some of the other ones we've talked to in the past.

Jim Richardson: I've heard that before. Unique, yes. So my business, MKR Building Solutions, is a business that maintains commercial buildings in the Boston area. And what we've become is somewhat of a concierge service. My clients, I was in the cleaning business for many years and I had over 800 customers in the Boston area in New England. And they would call me and they would say, jim, who do you know that does blank? And after giving the business away for probably 20 years, I decided to start my own company and offer the services that people had a difficult time finding. So we started out doing all kinds of minor things like fence repair and building fences. And then we got into doing some landscaping and then we got into doing some epoxy flooring. And we saw that there was a real opportunity here. So I went out and I got my builder's license and we started doing building for people. We started building offices and building in industrial buildings where there's big warehouses building small offices, doing a lot of repairs. We also own a cleaning company. And so with the cleaning company we had a built in community or network of people who needed more work in their buildings. So that helped us grow the company. So what we've done over the last 18 years is to develop a network of real estate owners and managers that need all kinds of services. So they've learned to call us and say, hey, we need blank. And so we handle pretty much anything from the curb in, in some sort of fashion for them. And it's just a way for them to take the items off their list and keep moving.

Stuart: So kind of 18 years down the track, how much of that is being provided by you guys directly and how much are you kind of facilit finding other people? Is it all in house still, or is it?

Jim Richardson: No, it's not in house. The specialty services, for instance, the electricians, plumbers, H vac people are people that I don't need every day. So I will subcontract to those people. But what I've done, I've been an athlete my whole life and played a lot of teams. And so what I look at is I look at as a team approach. So I'm always looking for the best to get on the team, the best drywallers, the best plumbers, the best electricians. And so I developed that kind of team and. And it seemed to work.

Stuart: It's such a great opportunity being that concierge for people, because having the knowledge and the skills. I always give an example sometimes of when I was back in the uk, before I moved to the us I imported a car from Japan because Japanese cars and UK cars drive on the same side of the road, so steering wheels on the same side. So you get a lot of Japanese imports going through the process. It took months, a lot of back and forth and doing things five times before I actually got them right. Because it was all of that learning and the little nuance of things that I'd never come across before. But then of course I did it once, never wanted to do it again, moved to the US so it was irrelevant. So all of that, that the skills that were developed, all the little bits and pieces of information kind of evaporated and it became just at a point in time, but then disappeared. So I would imagine it's the same for the owners. There's so many possible jobs that are going to come up for them to be the experts or finding the people or having the confidence or the certainty that they're picking the right people. Such a headache to be able to go to someone and ask for that concierge service, knowing that you've done the work for them, that you've developed this network. It's a really interesting development out of the original business. I would imagine that that kind of the certainty that you give people must be well received and valuable.

Jim Richardson: It's a comforting feeling once people start working with us and develop a trust with us, that it's a great feeling that, you know, no matter what happens, they know they can turn around and get someone who's. Who has had that experience before. One of the things that I try to do is to take all the different services we offer and create a process for those. Right. Like I'm going to use an example of just painting. Okay. Using the same Drop cloths using the same paints, using the same techniques. So we can redo that over and over so we can train with a sense of that we're going to offer the same quality in all the different places that we go. So we try to do that with all the services. That way when we do have to change employees, we have a way to teach them like a video that they watch over and over to sort of feel that they're part of the team and they understand the process.

Stuart: And not only does, like you say, make it easier to transition people in and out when people inevitably change, but the consistency for the clients, they know and have that reassurance that you're providing a certain job to a certain level, their expectations can be met and matched before you even start. So that kind of consistency, I imagine really, particularly in a commercial setting when there's, you've only got a certain window of time to do stuff, there's money being lost in, in downtime. So that that consistency and certainty must really give that sense of moving forward for the clients that you're dealing with so they don't have to. It's not an open ended thing that they're asking for, it's a known thing that they're being delivered.

Jim Richardson: And when you have a situation where I deal with typically the owners of the property or a manager that they've hired to do it, and so when they develop this relationship with us, there's a certain level of confidence that they have that they can talk to a tenant and say, okay, you need this done, I'll take care of it right away. And they know they can turn to us and it'll be done quickly. We brought to this business, my partner, Umberto Cabello and myself were both in the cleaning industry before. And so we brought this sense of urgency with us. In the cleaning business, you can imagine if you had a tenant that had, let's say, you know, eight floors of a high rise building and all of a sudden they heard that the senior VP was coming from another town to Boston. They only have 24 hours to make sure everything is perfect. So they would call someone like myself who was a salesperson in the cleaning business and say, look, I need extra service tonight. So we would have less than 24 hours to produce. So we took that urgency, we brought it over to our business. And so not, we don't try to rush things, but we understand that the people that we're dealing with have a limited amount of time to get things done. And so the quicker we can do things in, in one shot without having to come back and redo. It makes our clients look better and that's all we really care about, is that they look good.

Stuart: Yeah. That relationship building over time and understanding the impact that you're making to them and the constraints they're under and the pressure that they're facing to get the job done, it's not just that it needs to be done because it's a checkbox. It needs to be done for particular reasons. Whether it's VP coming in or just the staff coming into the office. That relationship building must lead to a lot of satisfied clients and repeat business and referrals. Do you find that the majority of the business now that you've been established for so long comes from that word of mouth, or is it, do you have a very clear sales funnel where cold leads are coming in?

Jim Richardson: Well, that's a good segue into the book because I have done that my whole career. I've done it by word of mouth and I've had relationships with people all, all over the Boston area, in New England that would call me that know me and that would refer me to other people. But I brought one of my sons in to work with me. And you know, as I start to, to get older, I want to spend time doing other things as well. I work hard, I work a lot of hours, but I also want to be able to travel. My wife and I are going to Greece in September and so. So I have to have a system that will work while I'm away and that's the marketing. So I really. I met Dean Jackson and Dean and I came up with a scheme to start a process, a marketing process. And in that was this book. And so I'm interested in developing this book as part of a package that I can send people so they'll understand a little bit about us and they'll understand what we do and just how deep we can go for them without having to have that one on one discussion all the time.

Stuart: It's this great starting point for the conversation. It's knowing these conversations are happening out there. So having the book kind of intersect with that conversation, start the ball rolling and then obviously have a clear next step through to what you want people to do or the steps they can take to kind of raise their hand a little bit more and have that one on one conversation. So we often talk about single target audiences and niches and thinking about the book in the sense of a campaign. Obviously you were talking to Dean about this before starting, but for the Audience the book is called the Real Estate Secrets to Commercial Restroom Makeover. That as a niche, I love it because it's so specific. As a kind of outsider to the industry, you're kind of thinking that how many people could possibly be interested in that subject? But of course, every commercial tenant or owner is interested in that subject because it must be the pain point of everyone's business. It's the thing that everyone expects to be perfect and is most likely to be less than perfect. So talk a little bit about picking that as the jumping off point for the book and why that niche first.

Jim Richardson: Sure, there could be no, nothing unsexier than bathrooms in commercial buildings. But the reason I did that is because in today's world, how I see it is that Covid has created a whole new spin of the real estate market. And the employees today don't want to go back to work necessarily. And they. And if they do, they want to go into an environment that is classy, that is clean, that is, has the amenities that maybe a hotel would have. So I try to offer that thinking to my clients that look at if we have developed a common area in the building that people are proud of, that they can walk into a bathroom, it's clean, the hygiene is there, the latest types of wall coverings, floor coverings, that kind of thing. You've thought of that. It lends itself to that view from the tenants point and the employees that, wow, this is a building that cares. And so that's what we're trying to help them with, showing that they care and that they've chosen this building to be their home because of the way the real estate owners have set it up. So that's the thought process with this book, is just one little piece of the pie of what needs to be done. And so it just talks about some of the things that we all know, but we don't necessarily know how to get to. You know, you want to walk into a bathroom and you want it to be spotless and you don't want to have to worry. And especially if you think about walking in with your kids, what do you want your kids to see? So those are the kind of ways we look at it. And, and that's why that was a jumping off point of this book. I picked something that I've done a lot of. We renovated a lot of restrooms. We do that a lot. And it really changes the whole complexion of the common areas.

Stuart: I know from personal experience, I mean, I, like I've mentioned before, home is up in Pennsylvania. The office is down in Florida. I drive currently, but I used to fly a lot, particularly over Covid because it was fantastic. It was like flying on a private airline. It was wonderful. But now everyone's come back, so I started driving. But anyway, driving through. Sorry, flying through various airports, I know that I would take particular routes from one gate to another because I know that are this bathrooms over there is a little bit suboptimal. This set of bathrooms here is better buildings and coworking spaces that I've been in before. I mean, in all over the world, in different places. And it's the bathrooms that stand out as the thing, because I think it's very much you would forgive a coffee cup in a dirty coffee cup in the kitchen, or maybe some old peeling paint in a common area somewhere else. But the bathroom really is the thing that you've got an expectation that it's either perfect or it's not. And if it's not, it really kind of sets you on edge a little bit. For everything else, not commercial real estate isn't my background at all, but having worked in some big corporate offices in big cities in the past, and knowing the facilities staff, my background is on the IT side. So it was part of the whole services thing. We'd work pretty closely with facilities, particularly on, like, the moves and changes side of the business. So you'd get to know people. And temperature settings on thermostats and bathrooms were the two common complaints all the time. So segueing this book, this conversation into a conversation that's very likely to be happening all the time with potential clients, I think is really a great way of starting that conversation. The other thing that stands out about it is the idea that once people join the list, once they've kind of raised their hand and got a copy of the book, your ability to stay in touch with them over the long run on related information, that's a very obvious path as well, because there must be often break it down for people and think, okay, people have requested the copied book, staying in touch with them over a longer period of time. You've got maybe seven to 10 days of the initial autoresponder, and then you've got either a monthly or fortnightly or even weekly email that can go out to them over time just to stay in touch. Sometimes the weekly email is a little bit overwhelming for people if they're not doing anything at the moment. So think about, okay, 12 emails gets you to monthly, 26 gets you to fortnightly or bi weekly. You can immediately think of 12 things to talk about bathrooms. That would be a monthly checkpoint. Just giving people tips and pointers and advice on making a change to their. Making improvements to their current bathroom as a way to stay in touch. So this idea of the book being the starting point for the conversation, but the conversation going on for a longer period, is that something that you're currently doing or would that be something new to add into the, to the comms that you're sharing with people?

Jim Richardson: You mean the follow up? Is that what.

Stuart: Yeah, kind of like the immediate follow up, but then the long term follow up as well. Do you have.

Jim Richardson: So, so currently I'm mailing people a newsletter. My customers, I mail a newsletter every month and I have a follow up or I have a postcard that I send out. Keep in mind that the bathrooms are just one part of the puzzle. There's so many other things. The idea here is that if we can do that, and it's really, it's interesting to me, probably no one else, but it doesn't, it's, it, it's not as expensive as people think to do a makeover of the cosmetics in a bathroom. And it really changes the whole feel. You know, feng shui, the process of feng shui I learned through cleaning. And it's a real thing being in the business for a long time you can walk into an area, you can walk into someone's office and you can get a sense of the energy because of the dust and this and that. And it's only because we've done it for so many years. It's not anything special, talent or whatever. It's just something that you, you know, pick up over the years. And, and so when you do this in a common area like a bathroom or a cafeteria, break rooms and things like that, lobbies, it really makes a difference. And so that's the whole idea here, is just to help people make these distinctions on where should I spend my money? Where's the best bang for my buck? And so that's why I started in the bathrooms.

Stuart: And that's a great point. I mean the secrets behind what you're offering people is making those points. It's that it doesn't have to be an expensive project. There are depending on what your budget is, there's options that you can take from the less expensive to the more expensive. So I think the opportunity to really stay in touch with people over the long term because it's difficult to know exactly when they're going to be ready, they might request something or Start the thought process around something today. But with the business cycle and whatever their other commitments are and just the budgeting throughout the year, it might be some time before they actually get started. So to have this as an opportunity to start the conversation, but then some very obvious follow on point, that's a great way of staying in touch so that you are there having an email, a newsletter, a conversation with them on the day that they decide, okay, today's the day that we can move this forward.

Jim Richardson: Yeah, I don't expect the book to be just a one time thing. This is the starting point for a long term commitment in marketing. And I think that the week at least a weekly touch of these people. I have a belief and my experiences when I go into construction companies, home office and it's a fishbowl where everyone has an office and they have the glass in the front, when I walk around in, inevitably people are stopping me go, oh, I'm glad you're here, come here a minute. I have something. Well, I can't be everywhere. So to have the opportunity to have an ongoing marketing program with a book, with a marketing program with emails, postcards and so forth, I can show up or we can show up on a regular basis just like I'm showing up, waving my hand at the door and they think of us over and over. And when we get that we've done

Stuart: our job, it's continuing to deliver value in a way that is thinking about the benefits to them. It's not just sending out a reminder saying, hey, whenever you're ready to spend money, I'm here to take it from you. It's sharing useful things. I think what you said before about the bathroom being the starting point, but there being lots of other touch points that's true both in terms of the scope and breadth of the services you can offer and the value that you can give in terms of information, but also in terms of the calendar and the new technology and the tricks and tips or the photos of a finished project, the idea, sowing the seed of an idea. There's such a broad range of value that you can deliver in that long term. The book being the thing that opts in is, as we're saying, just the starting point when we're looking at the table of contents and what's included in the book. One of the challenges that I often hear people talk about or try and talk people off the ledge is if you've been in business for any amount of time, your level of understanding is encyclopedias, volumes worth not, not just One, one book's worth. So what, how did you decide what to include and what to exclude? Obviously there's always more that you could talk about. But trying to keep up on subject, was that a difficult job or was that. Do you have a pretty clear scope in mind?

Jim Richardson: Well, what I try to do is to take someone visibly through a bathroom. You know, I know it sounds crazy, but they open the door. Okay, they open the door in the bathroom, what do they see? Well, we know when it's bad, we know what we see and we know what we smell. Okay. But when we open a door and there's fresh coats of paint, there's new tile, there's time, there's a good finish on the floor, whatever it is, lvt or, or ceramic tile, whatever it could be. The mirrors are bright, they're clean. The faucets are automatic shut offs or whatever, the partitions are bright and clean. These are all things that I tried to just touch on in the book as a way for people to understand that doesn't take a lot. I mean we, you and I just went through pretty much a whole bathroom and it's not crazy hard stuff, it's pretty simple. But you have to know how to do it. You have to know the process. And I find that a lot of people think it's going to be way more expensive. So what I try to do is also explain that to them. Look at, we have alternatives here. We can do this, we can do this. We can just come in and freshen it up and without redoing the whole thing. And I think people are comfortable with that. To know that there's alternatives instead of just doing the full blowout.

Stuart: The whole, if that's the concern, I would imagine for a lot of people is they might be thinking I'm interested in this idea generally, but I'm worried about the scope creeping, how much is it going to cost? And I'm concerned that as soon as I start having a conversation with anyone, the zeros are going to start adding to the end and it's going to turn into a big huge project which I don't have either budget or time for. So to reassure people that these, that there are beginning steps that they can take and the opportunities range from making small changes that really make a big impact through to a complete rebuild that I imagine is going to inspire even more people to reach out and start a conversation and not just be turned off or turned away. I think we've all been on websites where you look at the images and everything Looks good, but there's a button at the bottom that says call for a quote. And you immediately get that feeling of as soon as I dial here, I'm going to be adding to the budget. So it definitely makes it a very accessible way for people to get started and at least have a conversation with you about what their options are.

Jim Richardson: Yes. And it's the whole idea here is to create a relationship. I have no interest in coming in and doing one project for someone and trying to, you know, score big on one project. That's not my interest. My interest is in being able to help people long term. And to do that I have to develop a trust with them. And once we have that bond, then it's really a give and take is look at Jim, I have this issue, what do you think I should do? And if I can develop that with someone and help them, that's what it's all about in my feelings.

Stuart: I think that's a great point. And that ties back into this specific nature of the book that you've chosen to written as the starting point for the conversation. Because I think oftentimes people think about, okay, this is my business and this is the whole suite of things that we offer. So therefore, if I'm writing a book to build my business, it needs to talk about all of the things and the big picture. Whereas the reality is if we think of a book as the starting point to a campaign to use kind of marketing language, it's just adding value and giving people some helpful pointers on one small element of your business and their problems, their challenges, knowing that the lifetime value of that client, the lifetime relationship is going to bridge into many other things. So that I think is a good takeaway for people thinking about building a book, writing a book for their business. It's really the starting point of one conversation. It's like you said, if you walked into the office and you were walking around and people said, oh, Jim, two seconds, I've got something I want to talk to you about. That thing is the lead off point is the conversation that's going on in people's heads. Books are great because they've got all of this kind of authority and perceived value to them that comes from the traditional publishing world. But thinking about it as the author, thinking that's what you have to do, that's definitely not the case. Similar, I guess, with the bathroom example. So many people when they're thinking about bathrooms, might be thinking about a full remodel, but there must be hundreds of options that you could Give people that are just the small start that really makes a difference.

Jim Richardson: Same with the book again, it's with the book, it's a lead in. It's a lead in to show people, okay, we have some expertise here and if you have an interest in talking about your concerns, let's talk. And that's all we're trying to do.

Stuart: Yeah. The starting point of the conversation, I've started referring to the books that we write as conversation starting books rather than traditional books to try and differentiate in people's minds, the different positioning. And the more I've started using that language over the last six, seven months or so, the more it's really resonating and really describing what we're doing. It is that conversation starting element you were talking about using the books. Sons in the business now starting to take on some of that kind of lead generation role and driving some of the business with new clients. There's the existing clients and the referral network that you've got in place both in terms of current and past clients, but also partners that you work with. Have you thought about using the book as that referral source? So not necessarily just as lead generation to people who might be interested for themselves, but using it with clients and partners to say, hey, here's something that we've written. If you've got friends or clients or co workers who are thinking about bathroom remodeling or having, wanting to kind of raise their standard, use that as a referral tool rather than as a direct kind of lead generation tool.

Jim Richardson: Well, I think that in my situation, if you're a real estate owner and you own a high rise of 25 floors and, and you have 10 tenants and a tenant says, listen, we're thinking about, we might like these bathrooms renovated. And you could hand them a book saying, the contractor we use put this together, why don't you take a look at it and see if it gives you any direction or brings out any questions it creates to me, it creates just that little bit more professionalism that the real estate owner has these people in their pocket that they're working that have thought enough about, you know, bathrooms to write a book about it, you know?

Stuart: Right.

Jim Richardson: And so that's sort of the idea here. I'm. I try to do it to help my clients and if they can use it to, to get referrals or get new business or new tenants, great.

Stuart: You can imagine a scenario. Talk about building your success on the success of others. You can imagine a scenario where those tenants are going out and pitching jobs to other clients. So kind of two or three steps removed from you. But using the book as a use word, leverage. But leverage in the nicest sense, using it as leverage in that conversation of why you would want to be a tenant of our building as opposed to someone else's building. Because actually we work with partners who operate on this level. It really amplifies, there's a synergy to it and it amplifies the effect of the book way downstream. Yeah, we've got a whole white label side of the business that deals with white labeling books for other people. I could see a scenario where you had a big real estate tenant who wanted to white label your book and co brand it with them because they wanted to use it in their business as a lead generation tool. So again, not that's specifically the idea here, but this idea of you've now got one asset that is starting conversations in several different areas to be able to tailor it. And whether that's tailoring the actual book itself or whether it's tailoring just a cover letter that goes along with it or a follow on step that's in the email that gets delivered with it. But it's an asset now that you can deploy in many different places and really have it out there working for multiple people.

Jim Richardson: Yeah, I imagine that the whole idea here of when we talked about COVID and employees, just the attraction of employees to a building, to a company that's in the building. I know it's a stretch, but it's a kind of thing that if they put the whole, like you said, the holistic approach of look at this, we're in this building because the real estate owner thinks enough to have these kind of things done right. The book can just lend itself hopefully to part of that whole process. Yeah, but I think it could be helpful.

Stuart: Like you say, I mean, it's only a stretch if it's implemented badly. I always, I've probably used this example on podcast before, but you kind of politicians go on a news show and the news show wants to ask about their affair that they just had and they want to talk about their school program. So the journalists will say, so now that I've got you here, let me ask you about, you've just been reported, you've had an affair. Tell us about that. And the politician will turn around and say, do you know what? That's a great question. I'm really glad you've asked me. Family is the most important thing. And that's why my school's program is really putting the Emphasis back on. And they bridge across. Obviously that's not the most. That's not the most positive way of bridging. But a nicer way of bridging would be landlords have a problem with tenants because tenants have a problem with employees. And the whole return to work thing after everyone got used to being at home for two years. So to be able to trickle down the. Hey. We know that returning to work is going to be a struggle for people both in terms of habits and routines, but also in terms of safety and security and you just feeling good about being here. We've actually taken some steps. We've worked with our landlord, who's worked with their contractor to make sure that we're up in the level of the cleanliness, just to make sure there's no doubt about people's safety and returning to work. So it's definitely. There's conversations going on that cross over this kind of Venn diagram in out in society that crosses over and there's good and bad ways of doing that topic bridging. But it's definitely something that is an underlying concern whether people kind of overtly think about it or it's just subconscious. But.

Jim Richardson: Right. I agree with you.

Stuart: Yeah, it's. There's once. This is what I love about the book. Business is in our heads. As business owners, we've got so much kind of conscious and subconscious knowledge and to be able to share some of that with people to create a better situation, a book is a great way of starting that conversation and sharing some of that knowledge and helping build rapport with the end readers so that you can have a more meaningful conversation with people when they eventually get on the phone or you get in front of them in the office. Further down the track, there's a feeling of know like and trust already because they've consumed your opinion on things. It's not just facts and number and documents, it's feelings and perspectives and benefits that you've been able to share. So it's so great that you kind of bringing this together.

Jim Richardson: I think that one of the aspects of your books are that it gives the person who writes the book a deeper level of concern. I'm not just out for money.

Stuart: Right.

Jim Richardson: The author's not just out for money. We're doing it because we like what we do. We try to be professional. We try to approach this in a way that's going to help others. And I think the book helps with that. It shows because, you know, there's a lot of people who I run into that are just out for that buck. And I'll run into that. Not just me, but we want to separate ourselves from those people. People.

Stuart: Yeah, yeah. And that's a lot of the subconscious elements, the whole kind of Robert Cialdini persuasion and influence books talking about those subconscious markers that are out there that do. Books do build a rapport and add to authority and give a credibility and lay the path before you actually have the conversation. But on top of all of that, it's like you say, it's the passion that you've got and the knowledge that you want to share comes across in something that's easy and accessible and starts that conversation.

Jim Richardson: And I just want to say that this process, you guys have made this process really exciting, very easy and I'm looking forward to my next one.

Stuart: I appreciate it. Well, I mean, it's fantastic to work with people who are on the same page with us because conversation starting books are different than traditional books and some people want traditional books, but that's not, that's not what we specialize in. So it's great to work with someone who's kind of on the same page and is as passionate about getting their words out there as we are about getting them on the page. So really appreciate it. Where can people find out more about what you guys are doing? What's a good. What's a good place?

Jim Richardson: The easiest way, I guess is to go to mkrbs.com take a look at our website and look at some of the. We have a lot of pictures of before and afters in all sorts of different projects that we've done. I think that's the easiest way. And my phone number's there and if I could be of help to anyone, they could certainly call me and.

Stuart: Fantastic.

Jim Richardson: Call right away.

Stuart: So fantastic. Well, I'll make sure, as always, that we put links to the website in the podcast notes and the webpage. So as you're listening, go check that out. The book's probably a couple of weeks away as we record this. We're recording a couple of weeks ahead of schedule. So as the book launches, I'll update the podcast release if it's launched by that point. But if not, I'll make sure that on our social media channels that we'll send an update out to everyone as the book releases. So what I'd really recommend, even if you're not in the Boston area, even if you're not in commercial real estate. So as a service, it's not something you're directly interested in, but definitely check out the site and then the book as it releases just to get that feel for how you can kind of mirror what Jim's doing yourself and think about the book as the starting points of the conversation and the bigger business. And obviously if you are up in the northeast in the Boston area and Jim's services wide ranging on the commercial real estate side. So I know we've got a lot of realtors who listening, we've done books with and a lot of people in the commercial space. So definitely check out the website for more on the business itself. Jim, been a real pleasure. Just before we started recording, I was saying I'm really loving doing so many podcasts now with authors. It's really bringing a different dynamic to the show. So just want to say thanks for your time, really appreciate it and looking forward to keeping everyone posted.

Jim Richardson: Sure. Thank you. It's been great.

Stuart: Perfect. Okay everyone, thanks for listening. Make sure to check out the show notes for the links and we'll catch you in the next one.