Adding a Price

Stuart: Foreign. Welcome to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart here with Betsy Vaughan. How's it going, Betsy?

Guest: Good. Great, Stuart. Happy Friday. How's it going?

Stuart: Not too bad at all, thank you. It has been a couple of weeks since we last recorded. It's been a couple of minutes since we last spoke, but a couple of weeks since we last recorded a show. We were just before we started recording, we tried to do this about an hour ago, but then something came up just at the point we were about to hit record. So as we were talking about what we were going to discuss today, we kind of found ourselves getting quite deep into the conversation and needing to stop before we kind of burnt all of the good stuff offline.

Guest: So we really just record all of our conversations and then pick and choose.

Stuart: It would be much easier, wouldn't it? I tell you what's interesting. So many good podcasts that have come about. When you listen to the origin stories of them, it really was, well, like Isle of Marketing, that was really just conversations that started that someone said, oh, we really should be recording this and. And go from there.

Guest: Exactly. I say that about my parents. Just a little side note, as a reality show, somebody should follow them around with cameras. So they really are funny. Funny, if only slightly worried.

Stuart: Well, I was going to say the slightly worrying thing is then that everyone else sees the background of. Of your family. So. Okay, so today we are going to talk about pricing on books. I think. I'm not sure whether we'll have quite 30 minutes on it, but we'll. We'll wrap up with a few other things afterwards. But coincidentally, there's been quite a few calls or questions or points raised by existing people that we're working about. Working with, about including a price on the back of the book. So Betsy suggested it was a good idea to talk about in this show. And I think after that, we then had another two or three questions come up that were related as well. So it's definitely strange how something. It always seems to be some things happen in coincidence. I remember last year sometime we had two authors who were doing two very similar projects and their names were virtually identical. It always seems a coincidence that you get these things coming together. So this one is. Book prices seems to be the subject du jour, so we were going to dive into that a little bit.

Guest: Great. Looking forward to it.

Stuart: Perfect. So the. Which one shall we start with? So the person I was just talking to is an author. We just went to finish up on the book. The content's all Done. We were just finalizing the COVID and as a compliance requirement, it's a financial services based book as a financial requirement that was required to put a, a number of value on the, on the book itself. So that kind of led into thinking of well, we're not particularly selling the book. So I've got an outstanding question actually to see why there was that requirement, which interesting background information, but we're not looking at selling it. So what value can we kind of pick up from, from that price being on the, on the back? So a lot of the time people will suggest adding a price on because it gives the perception it's a perceived value thing if you then give the book away. And I think that's true to a certain extent. I think the thing that catches some people out is depending on how the book is written, the value written on the value assigned to the back of it can either give a positive feeling or can create something of a negative feeling. So typically we'd suggest don't include a price on there unless you are actually selling it. But if you do, the way that we've seen it work well versus not so well is if the book's written from a perspective of giving as much value as possible. So I think I've used the example before of the success magazine ad that we've run in the past for email mastery. The thinking behind when Dean wrote that was I've got a full page advertorial piece of content here. So my aim is to make those 350 words or so the most valuable words in this magazine. And even if people don't then go on to take the next step, they'll all have got something of value for the ones that it resonates with. At least the ones that it's, it's aimed at, they'll have got some value just from the information here. So it's not a case of trying to write something that then kind of not even bait and switches people, but only gives them the surface amount of information and then it pushes them elsewhere. It's really writing it to be as valuable piece as possible. The times where we've seen it's worth work less well is where the content has been very superficial to a certain degree, but not going into enough detail that it gives someone the impression of justifying the price. So these days prices on the majority of things trend down. So when you look at book prices now compared with 10 years ago, everything is kind of the Amazon effect of lowering the price right across the board. So there's always a risk of getting carried away and putting too large a number on there, that people equate that and value it against other things that they see as similar. So you're kind of introducing another. If the purpose is to start a relationship and start a conversation, adding that dynamic of the price introduces another element that you can't really judge. You don't know what that person is perceiving that value to be, whether they're perceiving it as good value or not good value, depending on what they've looked at elsewhere. So with the financial book that we weren't necessarily selling, but we needed a price on there for another reason. So thinking about it in terms of, okay, well, what does this do? What does it. What signal does it send out? How can we leverage this extra bit of text on the back to our advantage? It really was thinking about it in terms of, okay, as long as we're sure that the value being delivered in the book is equal to the number being written on it, even though we're not actually selling it. And if we can kind of subliminally refer to the fact that it, it does have a. A sale value in a positive way, but not in a way that kind of gives people the impression, well, this is. I'm just giving you the starter of running the starter elements of this information and really, you now need to go somewhere else or engage me to take it to the next level. Then I think it works okay in that context. But again, usually the suggestion is don't include a price unless you need to.

Guest: Right. And I think, like putting a price on it. It's sort of, you know, when she's thinking about I need to put a price on it. I mean, did she indicate like, you know, because how do you. How do you come up with that? Is that. Is. Is the content valuable enough? What is the value of that content? You know, and so, but she knows in her head she's not selling it. So for me, I think that would be more difficult to say, oh, I'm going to put a $12.99 price on this. And knowing that I'm going to give it away. Whereas what I deal with, people that ask me on a regular basis about prices, I might have an idea of a price in mind, but they're thinking the value is way more than what it probably could is, you know, and that's very. That's. That's hard to say. So if I'm putting it on there, because I just have to meet compliance, okay, fine, I can really put, you know, any sort of range of a realistic number. But you know, when we actually have to get down to somebody has their book and they put their, you know, blood, sweat and tears into it and they've got this investment and they say okay, well I think I want to sell my book for $22. And I'm thinking to myself, well, it's a 999 book, you know.

Stuart: Yeah, exactly. It's difficult, isn't it? Because coming from the point of view of the person that wrote it, it's the same with any product, I guess the market determines the value, not the, the person that sell it.

Guest: So the reason they think they have a mind, you know, a mindset of what they want to sell, what they want to get out of this book. And I think that unfortunately can be detrimental if the book is, you know, really not a 20 is not worth $22. I mean there may be some content that, that is but worth it to one person. But you know, if you've got a whole slew of people who buy the book and go wow, this is $20

Stuart: worth of waste, is the risk is probably negative reviews, is that's probably the biggest risk because realistically the majority of people who are listening to this aren't interested in being best selling authors. They're not looking at, as you're listening to this, you're probably not thinking the book is going to be another revenue stream. It's almost in every case a lead into your main revenue stream. So 100 book sales are probably unlikely to be as valuable as one paying client. But the risk is the kind of reputational risk or the perceived damage of one negative review in Amazon as an example, because that negative review will bleed over to a certain degree into whatever your product or service is, even though it's completely disconnected. And the person buying the book and leaving the review may have no intention of. There's a strategic coach saying of kind of only get opinions from people who write you checks, not from people who don't write your checks. So someone that leaves the negative review if they didn't get value from the book is perhaps more likely to be the type of person who is less likely to turn into a client because they wanted to get more value just from the book itself and they weren't seeing it as the start of a conversation into something bigger and broader into more services. So, so there's always a risk then of kind of pollution of the main funnel of the main thing that you're trying to do because of a Slightly misplaced. Asking for the money at the wrong point or from the wrong people. And that kind of bleed over of a negative review that's specifically about the book can tarnish your reputation. Or tarnish your reputations may be the right way of saying it because obviously there's a separation, but it's still a negative marker out there in the world that doesn't need to be otherwise. Amazon pricing as well, particularly, they've got such a control of the market. So the amount that they choose to discount the books themselves, authors don't necessarily have full control over what price the books are sold for. There is this trending down over time anyway of both hard copy and then there's the whole Kindle digital world where people's expectations of costs are much lower. One little nuance I guess is there is the separation between the price that's written on the back of the book and the actual list price that it sells for. So those two things don't necessarily need to be the same. Caveat that with you need to specifically check with the latest Amazon requirements or wherever you are selling it, just to make sure you're not running into any gray area of misrepresenting prices like the recommended manufacturer, recommended retail price.

Guest: Exactly.

Stuart: I don't know what the actual laws are, but there's something around it needs to be sold or sale prices. It needs to be actually sold for the higher price for a certain period before you can offer a sale price and call it a sale price. So you're not misleading people.

Guest: Right? I just had that question that someone just asked me that question the other day because they were. Their book isn't even written yet. And we were having that conversation about, well, really, truly, I want to sell my book for $19.99. And I thought, well, we don't even have a book yet, so we have a title. That's all we have. And so they said, well, you know what, I will. If it doesn't sell, then we'll just, you know, we'll just lower the price. And so my. I said, well, okay, you know, not even thinking about that. I'm sure that needs to. It can't just be a week or two weeks or whatever. There's probably some guidelines on that. And

Stuart: yeah, and Amazon, particularly their own marketplace, they restructure prices themselves quite aggressively. So as an individual, you've definitely got less control than you might think you have over what, what they're doing. It's very difficult. It's sort of here talking about prices on the book, which really isn't as we started off by saying, it's not necessarily the thing that we recommend because for the majority of people listening and even that person that you were talking to a couple of weeks ago, I don't know what their business is, but I would imagine it's almost certainly the case that one paying client is worth a hundred books being sold, even if we were able to achieve that price. And when you think of books that are out there at that higher price, it's very few that can command that. When you think about the, the volume of the amount of information that has to be in one to justify that price in the marketplace as it stands at the moment. I mean, I'm just looking around on my bookshelf now and even on some of the list prices, I don't know that I can see any list prices that high. And I can't think of the last time I actually bought a book that was over $15 maybe. And I only carry out that because I coincidentally bought one for $12 last week. But, but prior to that I would have said 10 because it really does average down. Average down that far. Yeah. I think it's so easy to, for people to get caught up on, on the perception that their information is

Guest: so

Stuart: much more valuable than information that can be gleaned elsewhere. And the, the absolute value of a book sale is usually far less than the kind of lifetime value of starting a relationship and leading to a conversation. It's. I can't share with people because it's in a slightly different context. But there was something else I was working on this morning. So as most people know, probably part of the, part of our large organization is the real estate coaching business and the entrepreneur coaching business that, that, that Dean heads up. So on that side, the Realtor side, we run a program again listings program there. And part of one of the mainstays of the program is a long term mail campaign into specific areas, sub communities or sorry, subdivisions or communities. So the idea being that pushing valuable information into that over the long term and then you start to build relationships. So we've got, we just finished off a case study. That's why it's, it's fresh in my mind. So there was a graph over the last five years, four years, four years from one of the realtors who over the four years spent $50,000 on postcard campaigns pushing this information through. But the return, the commissions over that same period added up to $547,000. So like a 10x return on investment, 11x10 on investment. That's interesting. But the really interesting thing is overlaid on that graph. So imagine you've got two lines. A kind of a lower line of that ramping up to 50 grand, the, the spend and then a bigger line kind of jumping up to 500 grand, 550 grand over the period. But on each, each month, each month where there were transactions, we then have a line that goes back and on that same timeline highlights the point at which that person originally opted in. And for almost. I'll try and share this. I'll. I might anonymize some of the data and then just share the line so people can see what I'm talking about and I'll put it in the show notes. But for each of those lines that then goes back to where the person originally opted in, it's a two year, three year, four year time span before that person actually converts. So so often we hear people talking about the short term, wanting to get a lead and then the immediate email follow up campaign and how to convert that person that's raised their hand. They've gone from visible prospect to a visible prospect, how to immediately do something with them, which is definitely important for the, the hottest of people, the most engaged. But this gold mine of the long term contacts that you've got that you're collecting, this ability to get the people who are the most interested out of the, the whole of the community, the most interested ones, the ones who are the most likely to convert over a period of time, being able to collect all of those up front and then understanding that only a very small proportion of them are going to convert in the short term, the majority of them will convert in the long term. Then turn it back to book prices and book sales and all of that type of thing. The value of the lead is immeasurably bigger than the value of whatever commission you would get from the book sale itself. I'm just looking at this chart now. I'll anonymize the data and take it off the edge. But you'll see the lines that I'm talking about. And understanding that really does take people. Well, even we see it. I mean that person that you were talking to, I'm not sure about that one in particular. But the amount of times that we still have customers coming on board now where we've maybe had a first conversation with them two, three, four years ago and it's just taken that long to, with the program. Yeah. To understand that this is in that time you could have written 20 books but it's still surprising how long that burn is.

Guest: Yeah, that was a bit of a tangent, but that's about Amazon and their marketplace and how they'll sort of adjust the price that came up recently with a client. I'm not going to get off subject, but I will mention it. So she called us and said, hey, my Amazon listing should be $12 or 12.99 and it's not, it's showing. And all she could see was one book that was coming from a, from an outside source. It was like a $41 book. And she said this is crazy, you know. And so when I went in to look at it on Amazon, I saw what she was talking about. And of course those are third party sellers that we don't, you really have no control over. It's sort of like a used bookstore, if you will. But Amazon had adjusted her price down to $9.08.

Stuart: Yeah.

Guest: And so she was, and she said, oh well, what can we do? And I said, well, if we put it back, we're probably going to come back and change it because I guess that's the perceived value. And she said, oh, just leave it, it's fine, it's not a big deal, you know, and the answer is like that's, that's fine. But I think that's really one of the first times I've seen that happen with one of our books, you know, or that we've noticed and you know, caught it.

Stuart: So they're on Amazon's and I guess we talk about Amazon because they're such the dominant player, but their terms of service that you sign up for Kindle pricing as well, if you ever do a Kindle version of the book, it's surprising how little control you've got over it and how much Amazon sets their own price. The other point you raised as well is the third party marketplace. So as soon as you make the book available, people can order it from other sources potentially or they could have got a copy of the book and then resell it themselves. So that third party marketplace, there was another conversation maybe six months ago talking about exactly the same thing. And in fact we've had it in other places as well. So again, one of the, looking outside of the nine minute book business, we've got a, one of the products, long standing product that we've had Stoppy Divorce, which was written maybe 13 years ago now. But there's even just last week there was a third party vendor selling that exact book listed at something like €250. It was a someone had emailed us in from Germany, I think. But, but again, that just highlights that there's such a lack of control and it's very difficult unless you want to absolutely be an author and your main product is the book, in which case it makes sense to put a lot more time and attention into dealing with all of the nuances and the hassle and the rigmarole of dealing with the books themselves. Then separating yourself from that conversation, just assuming that any money that you get from a book sale is just cream off the top, a bonus. But really the focus is leading into the conversation and the next step, it just frees you up from so much hassle that you've got very little control over. It's

Guest: my Recommendation from a 90 minute book standpoint is always let's try it our way, let's give it away, let's get the downloads, let's capture the leads, let's go that way and then we'll see how we're doing in three to six months. And if you want us to put it back on it, put it on Amazon for you at that point, we're happy to do it. You know, we have to set that up for you. So just to sort of. Because like you said, you might sell, you know, a handful of books, you might sell, you know, six, $7,000 worth of books, but in that, in that three to six months time, you could have received several clients, even one client who could be beneficial, you know, in thousands of dollars in that, in that time point. So I try to push people off a little bit with the whole Amazon, unless they're just adamant about like, you know, I really want it on there, I really want to sell it, you know, kind of thing. Yeah, yeah.

Stuart: So the space that we have seen it work, the small examples where we have seen it work particularly well are people who have got, and I think this goes for all artists. There's a couple of podcasts that I listen to where the guys, I mean they're mainly tech focused ones, but the guys are also members of bands or are fiction writers in their own sense. And all of them talk about being able to leverage their own audience. So it's very, it's very much more about putting something out there that your known audience that you already engage with are likely to consume and participate in rather than just put something out there and hope that a whole new audience will engage. And again, this isn't. We're not talking about lead generation now, we're talking about book sales. And the two things are quite different. But the place that we have seen book sales work relatively well is for a couple of authors who have already got established relationships with bigger organizations. So there's a couple of people who have written books specifically to support existing businesses, where they're supporting big corporates, where there isn't such an issue around the face value of the book because they're buying it as part of a bigger program for a big organization. So those guys have been able to leverage it slightly to get something a little bit more from book sales and that additional cream on top of the consulting work that they're doing for them anyway. But in both cases I'm thinking of their existing businesses, their existing relationships, and they're just adding something to something that already exists rather than trying to create something new or hoping that this is a whole new revenue stream that comes from, from kind of a whole new source rather than just adding to or augmenting something that already exists. So don't scare or don't want to deter absolutely everyone, but I think those are definitely edge cases and particularly within the 90 minute book model. I mean, we regularly say to people that this isn't a New York Times bestseller solution. This is much more around lead generation and quickly and effectively getting something out there that engages with those people and raises their hands at a far more cost effective point. I mean, when we look at some of the competition that offers, I mean, I would even say they're kind of complimentary services to us because we know who we're best suited for and we're not best suited for those guys. But the comparison is, is starting at like $25,000 to, to get that started. And that's not. You could write a number of 90 minute books for that price and test, you could test 10 markets and see how many leads are going to go, see which one resonates with the audience the most and then, and then develop that one further if you so wished. But yeah, definitely quite a different target. Yeah, the. Another thought popped in my mind and then popped out, what was I? What we talking about physical books and something not Amazon related. So the other thing which I don't know that anyone's actually done this, so I mean if we've got any of our existing authors that have done taking this approach and have seen some movement with it, then give us a shout because it'd be interesting to do a case study or a podcast episode. But we talk about Amazon quite a lot because it's the big dominant player. But there is definitely an increase in kind of indie Publishing both in terms of small local bookstores and I mean you see it a lot in the magazine space. There's a, there's a real resurgence in indie publishing in magazines. So those local booksellers now when kind of Amazon cleared out the, the kind of middle tier of big bookstores, those independent ones that are left, there's a potential opportunity to get into that space. So I'm particularly thinking if anyone's writing something that's very local, specific, so it's particularly tied into an area, a geographic area, or it's particularly related to an issue that's, that's very pressing within that area, then the likelihood of you talking to a big buyer for Barnes and Noble as an example and getting them on the shelves in Barnes and Noble, that's probably pretty slim. The likelihood of talking to a local independent and just keeping a stock of books in there. And you can even take it a little bit further. I mean we've talked about complementary industries before. We use the example of. James Sinclair and the book business and so his book based on dogs and pet care and getting those into complementary non competing businesses. So that local option, sticking with the bookstore as an example, being able to talk to a local vendor to stock the book, I think that's an interesting opportunity to do something in the physical space that's probably going to be, you're going to get more bang for the, for the book compared with just trying to go at the, the Amazon type level because it's more likely to convert into something useful and local. Does that make sense?

Guest: It does. And we had one of our authors and I'm drawing a blank at the moment. It's one of our real estate people, maybe in Canada, maybe the Northeast, did the sort of similar thing, put their book in. And I wish if they're listening, I hope they will, you know, reach out because I'd love to know the outcome of that. But they put their books for complimentary in local businesses, which is genius. A real estate business, you know, sort of introducing themselves to people who would be walking into these local businesses. And I have a vision of like these small, small towns, you know, these little quaint towns where people actually still walk along the square and go into the local shops and there's a local bookstore and local diner and things like that. So I wish that person would come forward and I could remember who it was because it's that same thought, you

Stuart: know, so you can probably imagine a scenario where there was. And I'm going to try and come up with an example off the top of my head now. So it's bound to fail in about three sentences. But something like the. Well, two examples then. One is if you've got a largest employer. So we've done this a little bit, again using the real estate example, done this a little bit on that side in a slightly different context. But if you reached out to actually a better example, forget the, let's think about hr because actually I was talking to someone else about this a couple of weeks ago. So forget real estate, talk about hr. So you've got a big employer in your area and you're a financial advisor. And within your state there's a specific program that's available to a large set of employees in this particular business. So being able to write something specifically for that group. So again, this specific example might not work, but let's assume that there was a tax break for new parents in your state that didn't necessarily apply to other states. You've got three or four big employers in your town, your city. So writing a guide to like the, the, the Florida Guide to New Parents Child College Saving plans, something like that.

Guest: Well, yeah, listen, so just so you know, Dean Jackson did a workshop recently about titles. So we should listen to that a little bit.

Stuart: This is why, this is why I got Dean to do it, not me. We need to start printing on bigger format books if it was my titles. So yes, I say there's a particular thing that's specific to your area. You know, there's three or four big employers where 20 of their employee base might get some value from this. Reaching out to their HR department who have got a mandate to support the financial well being of their employees. They might not be aware of this. Writing something that is all content, all value. It's not like you're going in there with a sales brochure, but saying, hey, I've written this book, I'd love to write it for you. Your employees might get something really beneficial out of it if you yourselves write a forward for the book so we can really dial it in for your employees. So you could have the generic book that talks about the tax breaks for this particular program and how people can maximize that. The particular organization can write a forward to say, we've asked Betsy Vaughan to write this book to help you understand how this tax break is important and how you can make the most of it. A reminder, as part of our employees benefits package, we contribute to this in this way. Or you can always discuss with your manager at your next review about how you can leverage These tax breaks even further. Enjoy the content. If you've got any questions, then please reach out to us at hr and HR can then have the contact to reach out to you to follow up on more information. So the individual specifics might not work, but dialing that in to the local area, so that was a little bit of a specific and not particularly a bookshop type example, but being able to write something that kind of dials it in in that way is such an unbelievable opportunity to. I mean it really is a win win for everyone. The local bookstore example. And just circling back to that, writing something that's specific to the area. I'm trying to think of the use case that because you don't necessarily want to write something that's unnecessarily trying to hang your hat like the. If it was a osteopath and they trying to write the Winter Haven Guide to Back Pain, then yeah, okay, well, fair enough. But there's not really anything specific to back pain in Winter Haven. Unless it was that Winter Haven had a big coal mining community and all of that, which would be a terrible idea because we're, we're below sea level almost. But Windhaven had a whole load of coal mines. The mines were very low. Everyone was working, being bent over all the time. And therefore there were some specific select the Windhaven Coalminders Guide to Back Pain, then that might be something that resonates a little bit more and has a legitimate reason for why it's geographically tied to the area. So it doesn't work for every situation. And you don't want to kind of try and force your book into a local context. But if it is something that makes sense and resonates, doing that in order to promote it or market it or display it locally might well have a big benefit. And I can imagine local newspapers as well. And as you come to promote your book after it, there's a lot of that local context to it might kind of amplify the interest in it a little bit more.

Guest: Yeah, exactly.

Stuart: So I think I just looked down at the clock again and we are diving past, we're just past 30 minutes. So I think that is a good place to wrap. And we're off on a bit of a tangent from just the prices. But I think these ideas of doing something as specific as possible, but in a way that's maybe something slightly different. I mean we often talk about a single target market, but thinking about that in a slightly different context, the pricing on the book, think about that in terms of okay, what's the risk to doing this versus what the reward of doing this is? They're understanding that as a author you might have less control than you think you do. So unless it's something you really want to expend some time and effort on, then just let it go, don't worry about it. And if it does turn into a revenue channel, then fair enough. But the other opportunities are probably outweighing it. The last thing, as I say, I'll put in the show notes the chart that we've got from the realtor side of the business. So it's not the numbers themselves are kind of irrelevant. The thing that's really interesting is the long lead time that it often takes for people to convert. So not underestimating the value of the lead today, given that it might take three or four years for it to convert.

Guest: Good point.

Stuart: Yeah, you mentioned just as we close and I'll circle back in a second and check if you've got anything else before before we wrap. But you did mention the book titles called that we did this week, which I'll put a copy a link to the audio in the show notes. So anyone that dialed in probably heard that we had a there was some technical problems on the line to begin with, so the line was silent for the first 10 minutes or so. So I think a lot of people dialed in but then dialed out again. So if you were in that again just apologies some technical issues on the on the call, the conference call line we did get that sorted out. So we then we're able to pick up the second half of the conversation and the Q and A session afterwards. We've stitched together the a separate introduction piece that we've had previously with this Q and A session. So hopefully this audio will still be of value to anyone that's either hasn't listened to any of the titles calls that we've done before or people who dialed in and heard the silence. So if you dialed in and didn't hear it or this is the first you're hearing about it again, check out the show notes and I'll put a link in the email for this episode as well. So it'll be a link to the titles call, which your book title really is the thing that gets people to raise their hand. It's the thing that separates you from all the other words that are out there and really is the first stage in the process of engaging and starting that conversation. So definitely well worth a listen because there's a particularly the Q and A calls there's a couple of different approaches to how people are engaging with the customers or potential customers and what the best way of getting that to resonate is. So definitely check out that it'll be in the show notes. Show notes, as always, are across on 90minutebooks.com podcast. And this is episode 87. 87. Sorry, 38 for anyone that's listening to this in the future.

Guest: All right, very good.

Stuart: So that's definitely me done. My voice is starting to go a little bit croaky and I'm definitely out of coffee, so I need to go and fix that. Was there anything that, anything that you want to say that we've missed?

Guest: No, no. I think that. I don't think we expected to speak that long about this because we had some other stuff to talk about. But we have topics now for next time, so we do.

Stuart: Just before we started recording, I can remember saying to Betsy, well, we might go for like 10 minutes on this and maybe we'll cycle to something else. But it's surprising how fast time goes. If you're listening to this and you're one of the person that we've been talking about. So you've got some with your own book, you've got examples of the ways that we've been talking about using it, then definitely just shoot us a note to supportintyminutebooks.com it'd be great to jump on a call and do an interview episode talking about how you're using it. If you're ready to get started, then as always, just head over to 90minutebooks calm and follow the get started link off the homepage there. We'll be waiting, ready to pick up that call and start working on your book and get it out there in the next couple of months. So thanks, Betsy. We will catch up next time.

Guest: Absolutely. Always a pleasure.

Stuart: Thanks, everyone. Bye Bye.

Guest: Sa.