Designing Great Covers

Stuart: Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the book More show. It's Stuart here and today, great pleasure to be joined by Glenn Linton. Glenn, how's it doing? How's it doing? How's it going?

Guest: Great, Stuart, thank you so much.

Stuart: Yep, perfect. That was a mixing words in the first couple of sentences. That's always a auspicious start to the podcast. Glenn, for those who don't know, is one of our two in house designers. So we've got Glenn and Sarah both based up in Toronto. So we've done over 300 books now. And between them, Glenn and Sarah have obviously worked with all of the authors that we've created covers for. So I was up in Toronto last week and it was, we were kind of making the point of talking about kind of experts within the field and having done, Glenn's been around slightly longer than Sarah, so done a few more. So having done must be close to 200 or so now really kind of establishes a kind of a back catalogue or an expertise in a book cover field. So we thought it was a good opportunity to get Glenn on the call and we can talk through some of the COVID designs and really talk about some of the benefits of having a cover that amplifies the message of the, of the titles and the subtitles that come through. So Glenn, I guess it'd be useful for interesting for people to talk about the kind of, I guess the development over the last three or four years of doing titles. When you're working with people, how do you feel or do you get a feel quite quickly when people come on board for the types of covers that they're looking for or is it, is there certain bits of information you desperately need from people to help get started?

Guest: Yeah, well, we now have a process in place where we send out a questionnaire, a design questionnaire that the author can fill out and let us know what sort of letter styles, fonts, colors, backgrounds and images they see in their mind the way they'd like to go with their cover. They also have opportunity to show us several covers that they like. Now they there's a lot of authors out there that do some great covers and so it depends on what the author's thinking. Sometimes they want just an illustrated graphic that we can purchase online from our stock images sites. Either a photo or a vector image or a graphic. We kind of gauge where they're headed, whether it's bright or whether it's subdued colors. So it's great opportunity for them to give us an overview of what they like and what attracts them and what may work for their clients. So one thing that I notice, sometimes the titles themselves describe exactly what's in the book. I'm reminded of one that's called the 10 Habits of Successful Real Estate Investors. There's no question what this book's about.

Stuart: That definitely does what it says on the tin.

Guest: Yeah, it's about the 10 habits of successful real estate investors. So this guy didn't really want any image at all. He just wanted that title on it and that was white letters on red and that stood out and that was a go. That's a very easy cover to work with. It says everything you need to say on it. We do. So sometimes we have to gauge whether the title is the prominent feature which should be. But sometimes the image itself is the attention getter because if you pull this book off a shelf or you just happen to see it, that image will prompt the reader to open it up and go, gee, I don't know what that book's all about. So there's lots of examples on our 90min 90minute.com 90minutebooks.com website in the gallery. It shows a great overview of a lot of the books, not all of our books, but quite a few that we've done over the past few years that have been very successful.

Stuart: It's interesting what you're saying about the title there because I was talking with, I think on the podcast a couple of weeks ago with Dean about titles and how the idea or the aim is really to get someone who's sees those words for it to resonate with them and the book then gets them to raise their hand as interested and makes an invisible lead visible. But you might. That some people pick slightly more obscure titles which might be. It might make much more sense within their industry. So it's just that as an outsider, it's more difficult to parse. Or it might be that there's some people. I think we've mentioned this before on the show as well. Some people try and get a little bit too clever with the titles. So it's not until someone's read a subtitle or the image kind of telegraphs more with the meaning behind it, but with the aim of really getting people to raise their hand. That cover image is important to amplify the title and communicate the message, particularly where the titles themselves aren't quite as clear as they could be.

Guest: Right. We've had a few examples. One author was writing a book called the 401K Game Changer, which I like the title right away. The reader knows that this is about his 401k and the game changer. Well, this guy has new ideas for my 401k. And the subtitle is Structuring a Winning Retirement Plan. Now the interesting thing about this author, he was a professional hockey player in the NHL, went into the financial field and he came to me and said, I want people to know of my past. I want them to identify me with my hockey career. And he said, I want a picture of a hockey rink or a hockey game or hockey player on the COVID So I said, okay, well that's an interesting concept, but it's a little bit much. It's really focusing in on his hockey career. Let's make that, let's make that image subtle so that there's the 401k game changer. That title stands out and your subtitle stands out. But your image is referring back, referring to who you are as a reminder of, you know, your past career. And it blends in with the subtitle of Structuring a Winning Retirement. So the kind of a play on words, you know, the game of hockey, the winning game changer. So I went online in our stock photo site and I found a terrific image of a spotlight on a guy wearing a hockey, wearing. What's the word I'm looking for? Skates. Hockey skates. So there's, there's a hockey skate and a puck and it's very subtle and I love that because it refers to his, what he wants. This title stands out. The subtitle stands out. And so I sent that to him and he said, perfect, that's exactly what I'm looking for.

Stuart: And that one ticks all of the boxes in the perfect way because you've got the title that really is unambiguous. So the reader doesn't have to be clever or decipher or decode what the title is about. It hits the mark by being very explanatory. The subtitle amplifies it a little bit more by adding more depth to, to the solution that the book provides. And the COVID amplifies it all with the subtle keys, as you mentioned, of the winning in the game. But referring back to his career and I'm sure he uses those hockey metaphors a lot in his day to day practice and perhaps even that's a target market within his business is hockey players or people within the hockey environment. So the COVID image then really amplifying it without distracting it. And I really like the point that you made that had we have Gone with the original idea of making a very strong and dominant hockey image, then that would have taken away from what the book was about because that would have introduced some ambiguity about whether the book was sports related or financial related. But describe it in the way that you have the title. Is there a clear title? The subheading reinforces the points and the COVID then amplifies the underlying message that he makes. I think that's the perfect blend of all of the attributes rather than letting one take, take priority or deprioritize something that should be more important. The title itself.

Guest: Right, right. And some other covers that I like. That one that just has a smaller image on it. We do all kinds. For instance, the 10,080 minutes cover, Living what Matters One Week at a Time. That I like that cover because it's the full cover. It's a full image and it's a beautiful image. It's got great colors to it. I really like that cover for how it looks. And it's just a simple cover with a clock. And I chose an antique pocket watch. Number one I like, though I actually collect them. I have quite a few of those.

Stuart: Always good to work in a personal passion.

Guest: Yeah, I'm partial to that kind of look, that color. It's calming. It's a very calming image. To me, the title stands out. 10,080 minutes. It's just a beautiful cover to me. Now, the author chose those letter styles, which is fine. I think they work very well. I think I may have chosen something different. But that's the great thing about what we do. The author has the choice. They can choose their font styles if they're not crazy about them, if they've seen them on another cover that works that they like, they can just request it and we can, we'll do our best to put that, that font, that letter style on it. So that's the great thing about 90 minute books. You have control. The author actually really does have control of where the COVID will go in some cases. Sometimes we have to rein them in just a little bit and put them on the right path because.

Stuart: Well, I think that's perfect because it's the balance of having an expert giving an opinion, but not just handing it over completely to someone else. So within the individual packages, we've got even the signature cover, which is the most cost effective of the products we offer. Even the signature cover, the amount of stylization and customization and dialing in that you can do really makes for a pretty unique cover. And then if you want to invest Further to basically put more time into the COVID then there's options for people that want to do that as well. But even the most. Even the signature covers, the standard covers, for want of a better term, being able to take. We've talked about stock imagery on a couple of the examples, but even taking stock images, but making them sit in a cover that creates something complete is something that's very difficult for someone to do by themselves. And even working with a designer externally, an independent designer, the cost can start kind of escalating away as you kind of paying per minute almost for that type of effort. And then when you compare it to something like Amazon, CreateSpace's own cover design, I mean, they do some good stuff too, but it's still very fixed. It's kind of one suggestion in the first place, one set of reviews, one very limited change. So the opportunity that we've got to work with people within their own budget constraints to create something that looks fantastic for people whether they want to spend. Whether they want to spend any extra on it or not, it really does mean that people end up with something that's tailored to their. Tailored to their own brand, their own business, tailored to the colors that they like. We're getting the key elements in there. We've got all of our expertise that we're layering on about matching the style of the COVID with the message that's trying to get across, which is obviously the main thing. And as you say, sometimes we need to reel people in a little bit or give them a little bit of guidance as to where they want to go. But people are very much in control and we're just helping steering them in the right direction.

Guest: We've also done some. I've been approached by a few authors saying we like a kind of a cartoon image on the front. And they've sent me some samples and I've done, I think, three covers already using our own little creations, our own little drawings and illustrations. I have a particular style that I stick with, and I'll do a mock up and send that to them and say, is this the kind of style that you are happy with? And I usually. They come back with, yes, that's great. If the style I use is kind of a loose. Similar style to the Far Side, if you remember the Far side cartoon. Yeah, that Very, very loose drawings. And I've done a few of those. And you put a little bit of humor in it as well. Just some subtle humor. Yes. And that totally gets. That really gets the reader's attention when you use A little bit of humor too.

Stuart: And those custom jumps. Sorry, buddy, I was going to say those custom jumps. Whether it's the hand drawn stuff or we've done some very heavily photoshopped images that started out on as stock images but we changed them quite dramatically. So definitely for anyone that really wants to invest a lot into the COVID we've got the opportunity to really create something that is very uniquely stylized and absolutely. Well, it's a custom creation for people there and then it doesn't exist anywhere else in any form. I think some of the ones that we've seen look fantastic. As a non designer, it's difficult for me to tell sometimes which ones are the ones that we've just very heavily. We've done a lot of work on from the stock images versus ones that we've recreated and added a lot of our own elements to. It's really quite fantastic to see them come together. Yeah.

Guest: When we were first starting out, we were getting. I was getting some custom covered books and I wouldn't claim to be an expert in Photoshop, but I really learned a lot from some of the covers. Yeah. Just by putting one client, one particular author a couple years ago came to us and was very specific about what she wanted. She want a keyhole with light coming through.

Stuart: That's the exact one I was thinking of. It looks fantastic.

Guest: Yeah, right. A keyhole with light coming through it. It's on our gallery if you want to take a look at it. The wealthy boomer and the light coming through the keyhole, shining a light on a key and the shadow of the key is supposed to be a dollar sign. All placed on an old book, an open book. Extremely specific, but we pulled it off and she loved.

Stuart: Just looks amazing, doesn't it? I think I'm going to channel my inner Dean Jackson here and just sort of give a reminder to anyone that's listening that you just want to. If the additional cost isn't an issue, then okay, fair enough. But if cost is an issue, then you want to think about what makes the boat go faster and whether this level of customization gives you the return on investment you're looking for. But that aside, if it is something that you're more than happy to invest in, the outcome or the results really almost whatever thought you have in your head is really going to be rendered and created on the page. They do look quite fantastic. But that's definitely not to take away from the, as I say, the signature ones or the more customized ones that we have in there as well. Those are definitely as fantastic looking because it's difficult sometimes to tell whether something was. Was created elsewhere and we've just reused it or whether we've had to create it individually for people. So definitely recommend people look across the gallery. Sorry, I interrupted you. There you go.

Guest: No, I don't remember. No, I. One thing I want to point out is that I know, I think I speak for Sarah, our other designer as well, is that when we design covers, it's fun, but we take it very seriously because the author's covers, they are representing their business, they are representing their company, their future. They're depending on this book to generate leads for them so they can become more of a success. So I take this very seriously. We really listen to the author, we consider what their ideas are and where they'd like to go. And it's a lot of fun, too. Design process is very new for a lot of these entrepreneurs. And sometimes you. You sometimes have to. If I could use the term, hold their hand, which they. They do appreciate. They like that. And we do our best to. To lead them down a certain way. Some of their ideas can be a little. A little off.

Stuart: Right.

Guest: And I design covers from the standpoint of a client, from a standpoint of a reader. What is going to get my attention? Does this book tell me on the front cover what this book is about, or does it intrigue me enough to want to open it and read it? And that's what we really focus on, is getting their attention. And not just the title, but the image has to be strong. And sometimes it can be a little out there, and sometimes it can be very subdued. But it's all a very interesting process. And we actually do have a lot of fun doing it.

Stuart: I think you were saying before that. So we start off by saying sometimes we need to rein people in on their ideas, but in equal amount of time, if not more, sometimes we're also able to kind of expand our thinking as well. So although some people might want to run with something that's a little bit crazy and try and bring them back, opening people's eyes, because as you say, this is something that they're not necessarily familiar with or have gone through before. So opening their eyes to what is possible and creating something that is breathtaking in the sense of something more than they thought was achievable in the past, I think I've certainly spoken to as many people who are. Well, I've spoken to more people who are taken away with the covers rather than have we've reeled them Back in. I liked what you said about connecting it with their business and the kind of rigor that we go through of just not being kind of like an execution. You fill in the design form, and we're just trying to execute on some words that you put on the page. But that seriousness and the. The intent which we put behind it to tie in with the bigger brand and think about the success of the book and what it's trying to achieve for them. There was one we were looking at when I was in the office with you the other day. The. I've blanked on what the title was, the book with the gears on the front, Where we took the gears from the site. So I think originally the authors were talking about something relatively plain, but when we went back with some suggestions, we were able to take one of the themes of their website and incorporate it.

Guest: Right. That was process triage. That book is still in production right now. We're still putting that together. But, yeah, the. I had the idea of. See, I always think of businesses in Gears, where you have. The separate gears are the separate people that take care of that particular job. The owner, the managers, the workers. And I was talking on our phone conversation about the gears, and I completely forgot that Gears is their. That's their image on their website. So we were instantly on the same page with our ideas. So I said, well, let me just take one gear from your website and let me put that on your cover. Watermarked. When I say watermarked, I mean it's a very subtle, transparent version of a gear. And I put a few of those on, and right away they accepted it, they loved it, and we're going with it. So, yeah, they had their idea of what they wanted to do and from their website, again, yeah, we worked out really well. We were both actually. There was two authors on the book and we were all on the same page, so that worked out very well,

Stuart: being able to use that expertise, use our background, the kind of experience that we've had, and help people see things in a slightly different way, or guide them to kind of fill their thoughts. Whenever we're on the podcast, always try and give people ideas, whether or not they use an R series, try and give people ideas or ways to think about things so that they can achieve and get a book out there by themselves. This one's maybe slightly different because the majority of the people listening aren't designers, and it would be very difficult to create something that didn't. Look, there's a number of, like, online tools to create Stop type templated type covers, which for some people that might be the right answer. It's definitely the quickest way of getting something out there. And I think we use on one of the other side of the business for some very quick and simple. In fact, the podcast artwork, we use a tool called Canva, which is a free online tool to do it. And I think they have a book template, a book dimension template. So if anyone really looking for the DIY route that's worth trying. But I wouldn't in any way suggest it was a substitute for having someone professional do it. I think then so it's difficult to give people ideas for how to do it themselves. I think if anyone is thinking about that, then as Glenn was talking about the telegraphing the message and making sure that the image amplifies the title and the COVID is definitely the thing to look at. But if instead if we focus for a second on people who are working with you guys as they're coming to the design questionnaire and the design call, is there anything, if you could talk to someone beforehand and get them to prepare in the best possible way, is there anything that you'd say to someone with a design questionnaire in front of them or with an upcoming design call, anything that you'd say to make the most out of that call?

Guest: Yeah, we get a lot of ideas. In most cases, when I design something for a client, I send them about three cover ideas. Or sometimes if I'm in a bit of a role and I know, oh boy, this could be a really good looking cover and sometimes I have more than three ideas, maybe I'll send five ideas. That's pretty rare. But that does happen sometimes. And a lot of those designs are based on samples that the author has chosen that has sent us. Or else they'll send us, they'll add a link onto Amazon showing the various book covers that they like. That's a huge help because that I can take all of those ideas, I don't duplicate them exactly, but I have the area of that, that design. So that really is the biggest help for me is seeing what they like and then going from there. Now they can add the color, they can say, I'd rather, instead of this, I'd rather have a blue background or white letters on blue or different things like that. But I'm a very visual person, so when I see something that they like, I can easily imagine what their cover would look like. Not the same, but sort of similar, if that makes sense.

Stuart: Yeah, definitely. It puts it in the ballpark. At least.

Guest: Yeah. And sometimes they'll tell me a different font letter style that they like. A lot of times they just leave, say, leave it up to you. Colors, leave it up to you. Or they'll give me a link to their website, and if they say, I want it exactly like the website, that's fine. If they don't mention anything about their website, they just give me a link. I will take images or not images. I'll take colors or font styles from that website so I can lead them down that path and say, here's a cover in the style you like. And I use this color because it reflects your website. So people will look at your book and the similar colors, they'll put those two together. And so that is a great way of getting people to focus on what they want. But again, sample images are fantastic. They are. They're the biggest help for. For me to, as a designer, on which direction. All I need is a direction. All I need is just you to point me in one particular direction. And then we'll have a design call and we can tweak. We can talk about other cover styles. Yeah. So even the call will be terrific. I had a call just the other day with a woman who. She sent me ideas. I don't know if you know what, if our listeners know what word clouds are. It's a cloud of words. There's whole. They're all related, and they're all sort of jumbled in together, just sort of floating in midair. And she loved those. And so I took a few of those ideas. I found some stock images. Then I used the soundclouds on her cover. But then I said, you know what? I see something different for this cover. I see the COVID name was Getting to Zero, and the title's a little obscure. It really doesn't tell you what that book is about right away. But it says Getting to Zero. And all I did was put an arrow that I created a long time ago. All it is is just a. An arrow pointing down in a transparent version. Just. Just not bold, just very subtle pointing down to the bottom of the book. So getting to zero and an arrow pointing down. And I thought, to me, that is a visual that works. And so I sent that to her and sent her, I think, five different cover ideas with sound clouds. And it was a little on the busy side. And she focused in on that arrow and said, yes, that's what I want. So we sometimes will throw something, our own ideas that we think might be more effective. So.

Stuart: And a good example of that expertise and the experience that we've had of guiding someone in a way that is going to look, that's going to look better in context. I think the word cloud examples that we were looking through as I was with you last week, it makes sense in certain contexts. But on the COVID it was just coming across as very, very busy compared with the other one and almost added kind of visual noise to it rather than the simplicity of the way that we went.

Guest: And if the listeners are wondering what a word cloud is, if you go to our gallery and scroll down to, let's say Backup Fanatic, that book, that's a great illustration of a word cloud that's sort of in a different style, but that works for that book.

Stuart: Yeah, there's another one as well. I can't remember. It was one of the early ones that we did. I'm just trying to look through as I'm talking to see if I can see. It was one of the early ones where there was a. I think there was a word cloud that had kind of been faded into the background and in the center there was either the one word or the one symbol that was very clear and the other words were kind of faded out. But that again as a similar, a similar idea but a slightly different implementation works that worked well as well.

Guest: Which was one that you just mentioned, the Backup Fanatic. That's.

Stuart: And that one. I think I know someone else. Sorry. I think there was a follow up book that was thematically very similar. I'm just looking through the Gambler. There's another one.

Guest: Yeah, I think the second book and I did the same thing.

Stuart: Yeah. Was that information is not knowledge. I'm just looking through that. So that's a word cloud, but.

Guest: Yeah, that's a different author. But information is not knowledge. Yeah, that's another word cloud. I think I added the, the magnifying

Stuart: glass and again that makes all the difference to it.

Guest: Yeah. Because you're focusing in. That's the. Because that, that magnify. Now I've used the magnifying glass a couple of times and the reason why I use that is because that to me says that you are picking this apart. You're looking at it very closely, you're looking at the fine details. And so I've used that magnifying glass because it has meaning.

Stuart: It means something more with the message. Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's not just there for the sake of it, it communicates something more.

Guest: Right.

Stuart: The one I was thinking of, again, it's in the gallery. It is A custom one, but it was the Focus Edge. And it wasn't so much of a workload that was faded out. It was a number of different graphical. It's like heavy iconography. So there's a lot of icons that are slightly faded, and then the main icon in the middle is very clear. But again, that it's not just there for the sake of it. The title is the Focus Edge, and it is very clearly telegraphing the meaning behind it.

Guest: Exactly. So that's the thing we try to focus in on. If we have room, the author is okay with letting us go that far. We try to find an image that has meaning to the title. I'm finding myself doing more and more of that now. If the author's just letting us go and come up with our own ideas, that's what I really try. I strive very hard to get that to work. I was just. I'm just looking at another one here. There was one particular cover I kind of had to talk to the author about. They call it Intrapreneurs in an Entrepreneurial World. And I had the idea of gears, meaning that the company is a set of gears, and unless that first initial gear doesn't turn, the other ones will not turn. So that's what I. And the author was like, I don't really understand it. So explain to her that that was my idea for a business running. Well, having that initial. Initial gear turning means. That means the rest of the business will run efficiently. And so she said, oh, I totally get that. Yeah, absolutely. So I. She sort of based her whole business idea on those gears from then on. So.

Stuart: Right.

Guest: So it was just an idea that I had.

Stuart: But that's the key thing. Exactly, exactly. And you were saying again when we were catching up last week, that when we send design ideas back, including the ones that are our interpretation that we've added, that haven't necessarily come straight from them, adding that description as to what the message that we're trying to communicate or why a cover looks in a particular way has been very successful as well in helping make that connection to what the. What the image is on the COVID how that relates to the title. I think that's a great example of giving that idea out there and then someone taking it and running it in a bigger way than just the book itself.

Guest: Now, I do want to point out that the authors really do have a lot of say in what their book will look like. I don't want to come across as saying, you're going to accept what we give you. No, not at all. You can help, but you can direct us. If you have a vision, you have an idea, we can be there just to tweak your idea. If you have an image in mind. I've had several authors send me images for the front cover and I will certainly let them know if it works. Sometimes if it's too busy and it takes away from the title, I will certainly let you know. I've had other ones send me images. They've sent me pictures of a sunset. Well, sometimes that works if the quality is good. Keep in mind we use the kind of quality you see on magazine covers. That's the quality we use. We don't use, you know, cheap images. We do. We go for the best. And that's what you'll get on the front of your cover. But you certainly have. The author certainly has a lot of input. If they have the idea, if they have the vision, absolutely, we will work with them and, and get the book to where. Where they're happy.

Stuart: Yeah, well, I just realized the time that we're sort of blown past the 30 minute mark, it's. I think we could carry on this conversation for another 30 minute looking. Looking at some of these.

Guest: Yeah, every cover that I'm looking at has a story behind it, so I wish, I wish we did have time, but.

Stuart: Yeah, well, we'll. The good thing about podcasts is that it's a. We're not limited to a certain number. So I think we should definitely revisit this in a few weeks time and we can pick up on some more. Because as we've got into this, I mean, we started off with an outline for the show to talk about some of the highlights and some of the key points to get across to people. But I think really it's as valuable where we've got towards the end looking at the specifics and just as you said, the stories behind them and how they came to pass. I think that'll be it. We'll definitely pencil that show in for. Well, we're now September, unbelievably enough. But yeah, towards the end of October, I think we should definitely do a show looking at some of the covers and how they came to pass and

Guest: maybe we can get Sarah on board to talk about her covers.

Stuart: That sounds like a perfect idea and hopefully she's listening to this. She can feel the pressure to come on as well, I'm afraid. Well, thanks very much for your time, Glenn. I think as we've talked all the way through this, titles are the key thing that kind of guide everything else. They guide the content to a certain degree because we're kind of backing up the message in the title. They guide the COVID image because we want something that amplifies that message. It really is that eye catching element. And next week if you're listening to this as we release our will be Saturday the 23rd as we released. So next Wednesday we've got a titles workshop with Dean where we're going to go through talk about some of the important elements of the title. Because it really is the key thing if we're looking at your book as the way to make invisible leads visible. The very first step in that process is having a title that resonates and get those invisible prospects, those people that you're really trying to work with, to think that's exactly what I'm at looking for and then raise their hand and start a conversation from there. So anyone that's listening, I really strongly suggest that you head over to 90minutebooks.com titlesworkshop no space, just Titles Workshop. I'll put a link in the show notes and in the email that we'll send out about this. But strongly recommend getting on that call next Wednesday and then you'll have an opportunity to listen in on the background of some of the titles in the way of thinking. But then more importantly, chance to ask questions at the end and brainstorm slightly your title so you can start the process and get your book out there selecting those or highlighting those invisible leads and leading to some great conversations. So thanks again, Glenn. It has been real great opportunity to get on the show. I'm looking forward to the next one as well.

Guest: Fantastic. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that too.

Stuart: Perfect. So as always, if anyone's got any questions or want to ask us anything, just shoot a message to supporttyminutebooks. Com and that's a central place we'll pick up all of those messages. If you've got any questions for Glenn or the design team, definitely forward a note across there and we can pass those across and address them on a future follow up show. But apart from that, as I say, recommend anyone listening dive on that titles workshop call. So head over to nineminutebooks.com titles workshop and all the details will be there. So thanks again, Glenn. We will speak soon.

Guest: Perfect. Thank you Stuart. Bye bye.