On the edge of effectiveness with Sam Altawil

Stuart: Foreign. Welcome to another episode of the book More Show. It's Stuart Bell here and today I'm joined by Sam Alterwill, who's an author of ours, has written a book called on the Edge of Effectiveness. It's subtitled Refocusing HR Efforts to Strengthen Organizations. Now, Sam finished writing originally I think about a year ago. So we're just doing some work now on a version 2 and making some updates. But this was a really great episode I was excited to do because Sam, unlike a lot of the lead generation books that we're talking about, doesn't necessarily have commercial intent to his book. As a HR professional in the field for 20 years, he really wanted to write something that shared his experience and his background and the things that he sees as common mistakes people make, easy mistakes that people can avoid. His desire was to really write that and get that out there as a piece to really help everyone improve their hr, their HR departments, if they're HR professionals or as employees, to improve the way that they deal. Improve the way that they deal with the HR organization that they have to work with. So very interesting episode. The authenticity of message really comes across and I think this is true for both. If you're considering writing a book where there isn't commercial intent and you're just thinking about what should be included or excluded or how to frame the book that you're writing, but also if there is the idea of writing for lead generation purpose, this thought of including as. Not necessarily as much information as possible, but including the right amount of information that really gives people value just in the pages of the book themselves, not necessarily whether or not they become clients, but that delivering the value in the pages then compels people to take that next step with you. So super interesting episode. Sam's got a great story and his approach to writing it was very interesting. You're going to get a lot from this. So with that, I'll catch you on the other side. Hey there, Sam. How are you doing?

Sam Altawil: I'm doing well. Stuart, how are you doing today?

Stuart: Yeah, very good, thank you. Very good. This is going to be an exciting call. We were talking just briefly before we started recording. I always say, I think when I get a chance to speak to real people, not the Betsy isn't a real person, but chance to speak with real authors. It's super exciting to be able to share those stories. So this is going to be another one of those great, great opportunities to share what you're doing with people. I know that when Betsy was getting this call on the schedule in the first place. She was very excited for this to happen because you guys have had some great conversations. First time that we're speaking, so I'm excited to kind of play the part of the listener and ask some questions about how you're using it and. And then see where the conversation goes. So probably the best place to start is for the. For the benefit of everyone listening. Do you want to give people a background on what. What the story is and your background and how you came to think about writing a book in the first place?

Sam Altawil: Fantastic. Well, my name is Sam Altoil, and currently I wrote a book that basically has to do with human resources and basically designing leadership training. And it's mainly for any organizations that employs people, so whether it be businesses, private sectors, public sectors, nonprofit, and so on. I've been in HR for 25 years in my career and 16 of that in leadership roles. Earned my bachelor's and also my Juris Doctorate, which is a law degree, of course, and been in some of the most diverse back in diverse industries in which I got to experience many different challenges and seen a lot of different things. One of the reasons I wrote the book as part of it is because I've seen certain things that actually work for organizations, and I've seen things that just fail. And for some reason or other, there's a lot of smart people and have done a lot of great work. But from after department, after department, I've took over, it seemed like something is failing, seemed like something was just not going the right way. And so I kind of, a lot of times I've nodded those things. I've made notes of it throughout the years and so on, and finally got the chance to put it together in a book and a book that kind of just sums it up a little bit more. But really refocusing these HR efforts to help organizations help employees and. And design really proper leadership training so that way they can thrive.

Stuart: It's such an interesting dynamic called the thought process that comes together as people start thinking about the books. Obviously, we're talking to people who come from all different backgrounds and all different outcomes that they have in mind. But there's a definite common thread of almost a frustration in a certain way that people say, I see this time and time and time again, and people keep making the same mistakes and they don't have the opportunity to learn from other people or perhaps what the their experience has been hasn't made them think about some of these things that to people like you who see it time and time again, become these fundamentals, and over time, those kind of coalesce around certain principles, and then you have a certain framework that you're using, and then you're able to share that with people, and it begins to resonate. So was that a similar path for you? All of the experience that you've got started to come together into these specific fundamentals that are simple to communicate with people and people resonate, or was it more broad and diverse and it was a wider collection of ideas that maybe weren't quite so thematically?

Sam Altawil: Yeah, it's a great question. Actually, it's a combination of both. It's, you know, part of it is seeing. Seeing things have been repeated over and over and things have been passed. You knew the past mistakes and then being repeated over and over, and you keep bringing it up, and yet they seem never to change. But at the same time, there has been certain things in certain different industries, certain behaviors. It kind of. Kind of shows me a little different. Different point of views. It's really when I came to cross these things, I always look to see, okay, what's the disconnect here? Why are we not being efficient and why are we not being effective? And so when we really don't know the answer to that, One of the things I always go back to is fundamentals. Once you go back to the fundamentals and find out whether are we covering the fundamentals, that's the first thing you do. And if you're saying that, yes, we are, then you take the next step and start determining really where you are. And the disconnect is. But 9 out of 10. 9 out of 10 is fundamentally that organizations or behaviors that those are the things that are actually failing. And so, and this is kind of gagly how why I refocused the book starting with fundamentals. I want the book to be fundamental, yet also tactical as well.

Stuart: That's an interesting point. You talked about the version. The book's been out for a year now. Starting to get some feedback and thinking about the version two changes that you can make to refocus it slightly or to address some of those things that weren't necessarily covered in the first version. The feedback that you've got from people. I think there's a resistance that some people have to the idea of writing in the first place, in that they almost. It's almost like the exercise analogy. People almost sometimes think that they're not fit enough to exercise, as opposed to thinking about exercise as a way to get fit. So for you, was there any concern going into this in the first place that you wanted to have a more complete picture or were you very happy with the first version? And it's literally these are all improvements and refinements that now come along in the second version.

Sam Altawil: Again, another great question. What I want to do is kind of give the audience a little broader picture of the topics and so on. One of the feedback I did get is that there are certain areas and it was a very positive feedback. They liked it all, but they love to hear more of this area specifically, for example, certain areas. And I kind of wanted that, I really did, because I wanted to know what the audience, when my readers read it, say, you know, what is it that I want to walk away from? What is it I want to know more of? I try to be very, very broad in this, in this book. Some, you know, I cover some specific areas here and there, but I want to give kind of a general overview and kind of a big picture look and, you know, more of a macro level. You know, when I started going into more micro, that started getting the feedback. And interesting enough, the people that gave me the feedback are the ones who are not in the field, but they're ones either want to try to get in the field or ones who are just basically saying, you know what, I'm an employee, I really want to know more about, about this, what does this mean? And so on. And so that kind of now the more and more information I'm getting back, the more it's setting up for the next time around, for what area of the book that I'm going to be more specific on the next writing.

Stuart: And that's a super insight, interesting insight because a lot of the time we find people either come to us with a project that they've already started, but they find themselves in this kind of endless leap without a scope constraint. So one of the book blueprint score mindsets that we have is this idea of beneficial constraints. So with nothing stopping how much you could write. People often find themselves in this problem of writing, writing, writing, writing, writing, and then it either never gets finished or they get worn out with the process and it just is a project that's incomplete. This process that you've gone through of getting a great version one which is absolutely fit for purpose. It does a great job of starting the conversation, but now you're in a position of receiving feedback, moving from a place of having that already. So not moving from the start, but moving from a place of having something to move from. And now you can look at it and decide, okay, which of these pieces of feedback maybe make sense. Which does it make sense to include in the book as a later version to expand on a particular topic, but potentially which subjects need expanding out of the book? So rather than trying to think about all of the words ending up on pages, some of them might be references off to other material. So you're talking about people being out of the industry and looking to go into one of the subjects more deeply if that's the case, or if it turns out to be the case, that they want that information because they are out of industry, but everyone in industry would understand it. It's kind of that baseline of insider knowledge that an external person doesn't necessarily need. I wonder if it's going to turn out that those particular words don't need to be in the book because it's serving a different audience, but there's ancillary reading or there's a link off to some further content. There's an opportunity for people to dive deeper out of the pages that can serve all of this additional audience. And I think that's really where the benefit comes from of having a scope constrained project to begin with, which means you're more likely to get it completed, but then with the feedback that comes back and just with your own capacity and capability being able to do more in the second, third, fourth year, the opportunity to decide, okay, which of these pieces makes sense to be included as words, or which makes sense to be included, not as words, as this whole host of opportunities to take the conversation further. But when you're doing that in the first place, it's very difficult not to think that every word needs to end up on the page. So I guess turning that into a question rather than just a monologue. Have you had any thoughts about that kind of model? About which of the feedback makes sense to be in the book and which of it can live externally and just referenced as take the conversation further by heading over to the website and checking out more details. That type of approach,

Sam Altawil: you know, it's tough right now because I'm still kind of in the evaluation process, to be honest with you. In many ways, I really would like to see it. I'd like to see more. There is, like I said earlier, one of the things about getting some specifications and what area that I really like to focus on in the future, the biggest thing that I want the reader to walk away is that whether you're a person who's in the field or person outside the field, is that to understand really what this is about and get Clear vision. Because how does that reflect in your life and how does that work in your life? For example, I touch upon the fundamentals and I use Maslow's hierarchy of needs as the five needs necessary that, you know, that people really want to kind of look for into their lives. And that applies to the workplace. A lot of people that read the book, they say, you know, I never even knew about that, never knew how the evolution that happened. So when they walk into their job, when they walk into their job now they have a different expectations. You have a lot of people that read it and now have a kind of expectation to read it very differently than those in the field. Example that in the HR field, they always talk about they want employees to be engaged in the company, and yet they have all these different tactics, they have all these different things that they do. But again, it goes back. Do you really have the fundamentals? And a lot of times really how we know that employees are happy or unhappy isn't the way they tell us. They don't tell us. I mean, it's hard for us to know that. But for them, when reading this understanding, they understand their needs of what they, what they. This is some of the basic needs. And they understand like, okay, if I have all my needs and I'm being fulfilled, you know, from, from the workplace, what's next? What's keeping me from being unhappy? And this is the kind of way that I want from the general public. This is what I'd love them for them to read when they're reading. And they understand that. And ironically enough, that is actually the feedback that I've gotten is that those who are not in the field say, not going to understand that. Where are you coming from? What now have my expectations differently when I go to my employer and say, you know what, we want to be a little more this, we want a little bit more that they have a little more expectation.

Stuart: So, and I guess a common language as well, if people not in HR field are reading it as a development tool, they're knowing the type of language that the mentor, the HR advisor or the development within the company, knowing the type of language that they're likely to be using must put the employee in a more in a stronger position as well, both in terms of understanding what's being said and how they can articulate it more to the professional that they're dealing with.

Sam Altawil: You know, and. Yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Stuart: No, go for it. Sorry, I was going to bridge slightly

Sam Altawil: into something else, but you really mentioned the language is really important. It really is. There's a lot of terminologies and human resources, and every year they change it. And it's really interesting because it's. We. They have this thing about reinventing the wheel. And I've heard other, you know, heard other HR professionals say the same thing. When we take the stuff that we've been doing for a long time, we either combine a few processes and so on. Now we give it a new fancy term. And this is something that went on in HR for years now. I mean, we take something that we've been working for a long time, sometimes ironically, and, you know, that actually confuses employees and it confuses people who've been in HR for a long time, too, because they'll think they're out of touch, but they really are not out of touch because the processes have been the same for a long time. When you talk about, you know, for example, just as employee engagement being involved, that's a nice word for saying it, but it really has been around for. Since employment started, so to speak. And so it's really. We have these languages and really what we're trying to do is, my thoughts is try to simplify things that, you know, not to complicate things for people, not just the people that are going to hr, but the people actually, you know, being employed. And so for a layperson to understand what does all mean? I mean, so development, what does it actually mean to develop in the workplace, things like that. So I'm kind of critical. Some of the fancy words that come out every few years, it seems to confuse more than it helps.

Stuart: We pick on the financial services occasionally, sometimes when we're trying to think of examples to kind of illustrate points that we're making on the podcast, because it's a background that I'm familiar with and, and we've got quite a lot of those books. And that group of people seem to be using insider language and making the products and services that are sold, highlighting the complexity as a way of reinforcing their value, as opposed to trying to make it simple for people and get to the basics and start at level one. I guess it's the same in every industry, as you're saying, the fundamentals, the underlying thing that you're trying to achieve within the HR world doesn't necessarily change from decade to decade. But having to come up with a shiny new model in order to keep the engagement or to sell more programs or to keep that feel that the industry is moving ahead. As an insider, it kind of. My background is more on the corporate side than the small business side. Although actually I've been out of that game for 10 years, almost 10 years now. So I probably need to get to the, I'm probably crossing that threshold soon of more doing this than doing that. But coming from a very large organization, corporate background, you get used to that as an employee or as a manager of people. It's just the, that it's the train that's moving along and you on board the train and it all makes sense. But as soon as you try and step out of that. And books are very much this transitional piece of trying to. A lot of time we're introducing concepts or ideas or frameworks to that new audience and to on the one hand, not undervalue what you know and what you might see as the basics, because the new group of people don't necessarily know that. So on the one hand, not undervaluing it, but on the other hand not falling into the trap of just using insider terminology that turns people off and makes them feel like insiders. It's a super difficult challenge to try and tread that line or walk that line between the two. And I think as you've experienced, it's making the best effort at that come from the best place for the version one, but then adapting once you start getting the real feedback and thinking, oh, it can make sense. I can see now what people are saying if this bit isn't elaborated on. I didn't elaborate on it because it's just part of that common vernacular. It's something that everyone no's in air quotes. It's, it's a real interesting position to be in now, 12 months down the track and thinking about what the best opportunity is from this point forward to engage with those people.

Sam Altawil: And Stuart, I learned that and I learned that a long time ago. And I, believe it or not, I learned that in law school Liberla in trial skills. And there was a great trial lawyer that was teaching trial skills insane. Then they said, look, you have 12 average people in a jury. Don't use these basically what you call $50 words and sound great, they sound wonderful. But you have, you have to convey your message to 12 average people. So you have to keep it simple. And, and I, I did pretty well on that because I can actually bring it down to everybody understanding. Because at the end of the day you want them to understand the concept, not understand how smart you are. But look, by saying these fancy words.

Stuart: Right, Exactly.

Sam Altawil: Really. And so again, one of the things, the way I even wrote the book, I Try to write it very direct, very simple, without going off into long stories and so on, just to get to the point. And trying to make it simple language in a sense that professional, but simple enough that everybody understand. And the same thing that I applied that throughout my career because when I'm talking in front of employees, I'm talking in front of executives and so on, want to convey my message. I do not want it to sound smart. And there's a huge difference. And I. And this one, you know, attorney, he kept really pushing that on us. He says, you know, don't use cop jargon or any of this stuff. And they just say that the person get out of the vehicle, so he exit the vehicle. Things like that. It's just really simple things. I know it's funny, but it. But you think about it is true. The defendant exit the vehicle. You mean he got out of the car.

Stuart: It's such a difficult. It's such a difficult trap to fall into. I can remember. So as I say, it's probably getting on for 10 years now. When I came out of that corporate world, my background's corporate it. We were dealing a lot with the project transition stuff into the live environment. So the whole language around that is very caveated and explicit. And the expectation is that for every agreement that's written, even not from a legal sense, but just from an operating procedure sense, for every One that's written, 20 other people in a very similar position to you will all review it and sign off. And there's a lot of, for want of a better term, ass covering of. Well, it was in the document. If you come back to me six months later, it was there and everyone read it and signed off on it. So to break away from that into. Over the last. Well, certainly over the last five years from the. From the book business, but even a couple of years before that, looking more at that communication piece with regular people, it's very difficult habit to break, to separate away from just that, even just the terminology. Not trying to use $50 words for the sake of it, but just the way in which people speak. And this is now what we talk about in terms of the books and the way that the process is around writing it. The fact that we're so adamant about recording content freshly and not trying to reuse existing content. The fact that we pretty lightly edit to keep the tone of people's voice as much as possible in the words that end up on the page. The whole purpose of that is that we're not trying to recreate a manual or a textbook or a heavily edited New York Times bestseller. The thing that we're trying to communicate is someone's underlying message to another regular human being that is the star of a longer conversation. And that rapport building and the break into normal language is very heavily based in the process that we've got and the reason we do it the way that we do it. But I think that element that you've got that you identified right from the start of being able to talk to someone as if they were another intelligent human being, but not assuming, not trying to show off, not trying to convince someone that they should work with you because you know all of these kind of words, instead compel them that they want to work with you because you're there defending their corner and making them feel good and engaged about it. That I think if everyone could take away that lesson, would be worth it, worth the podcast, if we didn't talk about anything else.

Sam Altawil: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. You nailed it. You nailed it.

Stuart: That purpose, I guess, is. Let's touch on that briefly. So the. We talk about the job of working the book as being the start of the conversation and being the first step to moving towards that engagement piece. So for you, particularly your ideal audience that are reading and then the ideal next step that you'd want them to take. Do you want to talk briefly about what those is? And then we can dive into that a little bit more.

Sam Altawil: When I started writing this book, I had in mind first the people that are coming up in the field. I really want them to come up in the field in a way, in a proper way, because I really don't think right now they're, they're. They're. They're being, they're being kind of taken this road and the road. Exactly. Just like we spoke about before, about these different terminologies and different things and different concepts. And what they're missing in that, unfortunately, is the people aspect. They're focused so much on processes and everything has to do with HR process, but they're, they're missing the human resource aspect. And it really is. And so I was hoping, and I'm hoping that a lot of people that are coming up in the field, they're really. And I've gotten a couple of reviews that people have and really wonderful feedback that I've gotten, like, to see more of that because a lot of times that way they're able to see the things in a different light. Other audience I was hoping as well, too, is people in the higher levels, CEOs, CFOs, anyone in the executive team operational, they will see as well because then they would have some expectations, clear expectation. One of the things working with executives for the years and years is that they don't know hr. They know what we tell them. So a lot of times, a lot of times they, they get confused by all these terminologies. They get confused by these concepts rather than when, when I simplify things for them in a different way, then oh, I get it. And then they're able to put, they able to participate more. And not only that, but they have great ideas. I remember one of the best ideas I've had for process for IT thing that we implemented a program which is employee appreciation committee that did not come out of hr, that came out of the CEO only because she started understanding why we need to recognize employees, why we need to do these things. And I thought, yeah, absolutely. And that's because I had her engaged in HR and started understanding the basics as well. The other side of it is, like I said before, let the general public to read it. Those who read it, who is an employee of any organization, whether you're an employee in government or you're an employee of private sectors, you understand at least one thing. What is the foundation for all this? Where it came from and how does that apply to you? How does it apply to you from every day? You know now why we do the things we do? What should you expect? Maybe expectations are different now. Instead of just basically saying, you know what, I need more money or I need better benefits, maybe your expectations are a little different. By reading that, you're going to read and say, okay, am I getting paid well? Do I have a safe place to work? Do I have great people that I work with? And so on, but I'm still unhappy, then why am I unhappy? And so they're able to at least identify things and communicate that with their employer, with everything else in a way that because employers do want a feedback from their employees, they really do. The ones who care about their organizations want them to see them great, want to retain great employees. They do care. That gives you another avenue as well.

Stuart: As you say, that retention piece is absolutely huge. I've worked in both organizations where the retention was unusually high and unusually low. And the difference in those organizations was night and day. So even if it's not from a, even if the employers didn't have a kind of, weren't necessarily doing it just from the perspective of the employees having the selfish view that the engaged, satisfied group of people that are working for you make a night and day difference to the outcomes of the business. Even that is is a huge reason for employers wanting it.

Sam Altawil: I once talked to an employee and I said to her and she was basically in healthcare and I said to her, you know, you can get more Kaiser. Why stay in this organization? And she gave me all the different reasons why she stayed with the organization and not go for a higher pay as an example. So there are retaining employees. It isn't just kind of a one solution to a problem. It is, there's many different versions of it. But finding out really what they want is really the key and not just basically just taking a chance of saying okay, you know what, let's just up our salaries. Because I think it's got to be paid. Not always necessary. That's always necessary. True. And you know, nobody's going to say no to an extra pay but that doesn't mean it's going to retain it. So there's a lot more to it than that.

Stuart: Yeah, that is such a great point because I think so oftentimes people think that just money is the answer, but very often it's not the case. We talk a lot to people about the kind of. We've got this idea of working with non competing complementary businesses as a way to promote the books and obviously for the sake of the podcast kind of trying to keep everything focused on that. But this idea of you could pay for eyeballs, pay for leads, pay to have your book in another location. But if there's a way of working with complementary non competing businesses where the overall success is far greater than just the initial dollar transaction of whatever it would be to pay to have your book in a bookstore. If you worked with an organization that were looking to increase retention across the board and reposition the book as a guide, a co branded guide that was created with the leadership team. An intro written by the leadership team why they thought that the employee engagement piece was was important. The fact that they've talked to you about bringing this book in that helps everyone. The overall outcomes of that has nothing to do with the end. It's not a financial transaction in the making. It's a more synergistic transaction of everyone trying to create a greater good. As soon as people start thinking about that a little bit more detailed than just the cash transaction, I think that's where the real opportunities open up. And the same with employers then just thinking that increased salary is down to taller problems. Definitely not the case in. Well, I'm sure it is the case in a number of occasions, but definitely not the case across the board. And there's such a bigger opportunity outside of that, just by thinking about it and orchestrating it a little bit more. I guess actually that. Yeah. It's a long time. Yeah. And it's more. I don't know. I don't know whether it's the opportunity. It's definitely a pet peeve for of my own. But the. The opportunity is so much greater than just that initial transaction. I was thinking. I was just saying that that kind of bridges into some of the ways in which you're now using it. So the books created the. It's available out there for people to get a copy of. Are you promoting it in any other channels? Are you working with any other people to have it get in front of the eyeballs that it can make the most difference to what's kind of been the. The experience over the last few months of getting people.

Sam Altawil: You know, I tried to. One of the things I did, I think I had another podcast very similar to this one, but it was with Voice America and. And that really reached a lot of listeners. And I was really shocked to see how many lessons we. In three weeks we've. They told me that we had over a thousand listeners.

Stuart: Wow.

Sam Altawil: And. And then in due time, we were in basically in the 20 thousands worldwide. And really. And I. When the host brought me in to discuss this thing, he really kind of wanted to do it a little bit from the book, as he read the book, but and also a little bit of just about. In general about employment and just labor and just things like that happens. Well realized that day that basically that that topic is more than just hr and it's becoming more and more discussion. So that really led to a lot to basically a good, you know, really good outlet for, you know, for the book. Got a lot of exposure during that time. I tried a couple of times, for example, to do just usual the Amazon ads and. And I utilized, you know, a lot of the basically social media like LinkedIn, Facebook and so on. And you know, they had their. They had their limitations and so on. But in reality, I think, you know, those are the kind of things I've taken so far. Of course I'm doing this podcast as well, helping as much as I can and yeah. And whenever I get the chance to do something to actually promote in a sense just to have a conversation about it, I'm always there to do it.

Stuart: So a couple of. We've been working with a few people who have followed up on this idea of kind of taking this non competing complementary business idea to a few steps further down the path of looking at which organizations kind of almost been a little bit more orchestrated about the approach of interacting with people. So if for example, there are. I'm trying to think back to the time when I was living in London as after 20 years or so, there's a lot of. Because there's such a density of people there, there's lots of meetups and organizations and chapters of various professional groups, all of the industry bodies tend to have headquarters there. So it's a great concentration of people with a lot of things going on. So there's lots of opportunities to have conversations in the right place at the right time. But this idea of looking for opportunities and even outreach to HR organizations within companies. So bigger organizations that are in the local area reaching out to those guys and saying I've written this book, this is something that would be great to share with your organization because it really hurts how employees can make the most of their situation and then by nature of that or by virtue of that, the organization does better. So there's an opportunity to co brand this book, to write an introduction or a cover letter or to. I can come in to do a presentation or a talk and present it as the benefits, present it to them as the benefits to the organization and then ultimately present it to the employees as the benefits to them. Or if there's a training organization that looks after the HR professionals, have that orchestrated outreach to those groups and look at ways that you can make it as easy as possible for them to include the book into what they're doing in the organization. The thought of that, we've got this idea of kind of visible and invisible prospects. So at the individual level, the individuals getting the copy of the book is somewhat invisible. You don't necessarily know who those people are who would resonate specifically. But the idea of visible prospects in the collections of people being together, that's a little bit more easy to identify and then actively go out and reach to. So and I know that you're crossing California, but I'm not quite sure how, whether you're up in the mountains or whether you're down in the city, but that looking for those groups of people where you can position it as something that will benefit them and then that has distribution because you're talking to the leader of a bigger group, either whether that's an organization and it's their employees or a group leader and it's their group members. Then we've seen a lot of people get some good traction with that approach. Does any of that ring any bells or anything spring to mind, talking about that?

Sam Altawil: Well, I, it does, but I wish I would have done it. I mean, those are really great ideas. I mean, to be honest with you, it's, it's kind of when you're a working professional, I mean, you really don't, you don't think about it as a, when you're a pup, when you're an author, you write the book, you want to get it out there. And the part that's been difficult, and I'll be honest, especially the promotion aspect of it. All right. I mean, you, you could see that's not something you, you think about. That's not something you do. Yeah, I learned a lot during this process. I really have. And some of the stuff you just mentioned here, like, well, those are great ideas, wonderful ideas. Have I done any of them? No. There were times when, yeah, I was

Stuart: just going to say it's like that old saying of the best time to plant a tree was 10 years ago. The second best time is today. So don't worry.

Sam Altawil: It's.

Stuart: It's the second best time.

Sam Altawil: I agree with you. And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of, you know, in the Euro. Again, worker professional, you want to get the book out. You're, you're really so much focused on the content. Everything else, part of our promotions, I think, is very difficult. But at the same time, it's been a learning experience and, you know, one after another after another. The more I learned about this, the more. And fortunately, it's not something that, when I, when I wrote this book and the person who recommend me to do with 90 minutes was that she wrote a book or something, she said, what your intent was, what is your intention about this book is for it to be just relevant for one year? I said, no, I'm hoping that this book be relevant for many years.

Stuart: Right.

Sam Altawil: And so I didn't want it to be just as like, okay, this is the newest thing. This was going on. You know, that was the case. I would write an article. What I wanted to do, make sure is, is that this is something that 10 years from now, somebody read this book and say, yeah, this, this, these concepts still apply today. These things still exist today. And sure enough, they do. And so for me, what I want to do is, yes, it's a constant thing about getting the book out there, getting those things out there. So whether it's a year from now, now or last year, if I didn't do it last year. It's gonna happen. So. Yes. So one of those things is that I'm gonna try to do as much as I can.

Stuart: Yeah. One of the things that we didn't talk about and I'm conscious of time's getting on so I don't want to. It will be an hour and hour and a half. I'll still be talking so conscious of keeping you too long. So one of the things we didn't talk about and then maybe we'll kind of head towards wrapping up after this. But it's the we talked about who it's who the book's targeting, who it's who benefits from it. The feedback that you've been getting personally from your perspective. What, what was the intention of the book? You are obviously the HR professional, but was it to land more clients or increase the presence or the at all?

Sam Altawil: It was, the intention was to educate. It was basically we were going as, as we mentioned earlier that we were going into a path where we make the same mistakes over and over and we don't learn from the past and we keep doing this. This is really to educate and recenter people at the thinking process and thinking to yourselves. Okay, you know what I need to rethink about what I'm doing. We need to kind of go back to the certain ways of doing things so not to make mistakes and be efficient. You know, the title is on the Edge of Effectiveness. There is a reason for that is because, you know, all these organizations I've been to, they're just on the edge of being effective and yet they fail. And so this is really mainly to educate. My work is different and I want it to be to have a voice in this HR world. And, and you know, if you really think about this and many people that actually publish who are professionals, they work for society or other people, place like that, they, that's what they do all day. That's what they, some academics kind of deal with and they do a lot of concepts. But I'm on the front lines of hr. I could see what's going on and I've been on the front lines for 25 years. And so in different industries and different cultures. So you can't just. I'm not bringing these ideas from a academic standpoint, but from a practical standpoint.

Stuart: Yeah, they're on the front lines. I think one of the things to you without there being commercial intent behind it, that definitely gives it a sense of authenticity because people are reading and it's purely a knowledge sharing exercise. You're not trying to guide or orchestrate people towards a buying decision at the end of it. And, and that's certainly a problem with some books that we see where it's. Very obviously when we see it, we try and kind of coach people out of that. But some people will come with the idea of it's very much just moving people towards a buying point and all of the information is very superficial unless people actually buy the program. As I say, that's definitely something we try and coach out of people if we see it happening. And. But you're interesting in coming to it from the other end. There's no course to buy at the end of it. You're not trying to get people as, as clients. One of the things that might be interesting to do though, is to a certain degree try and still think about it in terms of this path of educating people over time. So if there were, of course, at the end of it, that's easier to think about. Kind of talk about seven or eight steps towards getting people to buy by delivering value over that period of time. With that not being the case for you, I think there's still definitely an opportunity to add to the presence, to add to the value that you can give by taking some of that outside of the pages of the book. So we were talking when we started about what should be included and what shouldn't be included as far as kind of constraints and specificity goes. But certainly in terms of opportunity to share more information, if you had. I'm just trying to think of different places that are easy to create. So if There was a YouTube channel with additional stuff or if audio is easy to do. So if you could just record audio either in a. In a podcast form or in a. Just on a website somewhere, but having these additional assets, having the, the color and the depth and the anecdotes and the case studies that back up all of the points in the book, living outside of the book, then although there's no immediate commercial intent around it, there's absolute value, I think, in just enhancing and increasing the people's opportunity to hear more of your. More of your experience and your framework and your mindset around things outside of the pages. So, yeah, I really think that's a great opportunity to.

Sam Altawil: That is a great opportunity. That's a great idea. That's a wonderful idea.

Stuart: I mean, one of the other things there is. And again, I know that I said we were going to wrap up and 10 more ideas have popped into my head, but the idea of collecting names and email addresses we're always talking about in terms of lead generation on the business side but just to be able to collect the details so that you can communicate with people from an interest point of view. So not the intent on selling them anything but just to be able to share with them a when new information comes out kind of a newsletter, even if it's not particularly regular, but that kind of newsletter type approach as opposed to a client type approach. But having something that backs up the book more immediately that allows people to dive a bit deeper potentially encourages them to opt in. But I mean even if it, even if you don't want to deal with the opt in side of things, it just a place where you can point people towards to take the. The journey with Sam further. That's. Yeah. Just because there's no commercial intent don't.

Sam Altawil: Wonderful.

Stuart: Wouldn't skip over that.

Sam Altawil: Those are all wonderful ideas actually. And believe it or not I was writing some of this stuff down so. Absolutely fantastic.

Stuart: Well, we're, we're up on time for the show but I've got a feeling that we're definitely going to check in with people in the future and see how version two is going and, and how the journey is progressing as 2020 progresses. I definitely wanted to give people the opportunity to grab a copy of the book before we go. I'll make sure that the links and follow on activities are in the show notes. But if people were to want a copy of the book, is Amazon the best place to go?

Sam Altawil: It is. Amazon's the best place to go. That is correct.

Stuart: Perfect. Well, just for people that are listening and not not looking at the website, the book again is called on the Edge of Effectiveness. Sam's surname as well actually I'll spell out as well because that might trip people up. It's alterwill, which is a L T a W I L. So as I say, I'll make sure that we've got a link directly to the book on the podcast page. So that's obviously over@90minutebooks.com podcast and. And all of the links will be there. Any words to wrap up on before we cut everyone loose?

Sam Altawil: No, I just want to say thank you for the opportunity. I really appreciate it. I really enjoyed our conversation.

Stuart: Fantastic. Thanks. Me too. And I'm sure people have got a lot from this. This not having quite the same commercial intent the other episodes have had is a really interesting, authentic look at kind of sharing that message which is absolutely applicable to everyone. So really want to thank you for your time everyone. That's listening. As I say, check out the show notes and we'll have a link directly there to Sam's book On the Edge of Effectiveness. And with that, thanks again for your time, Sam, and we'll speak soon.

Sam Altawil: Thank you.

Stuart: And there we have it, another fantastic episode. I was excited going into this one, having spoken with Sam beforehand. There was a lot of great information there and I think the ideas that we were coming up with with this kind of non competing, complementary, non competing business idea that is one of the key differences that a book makes. Whether you're doing this for commercial intent, hoping to have customers at the end of it, or just doing it to share a message. The idea of having something that's written that's valuable to an organization or group and then being able to position that so that they can clearly see the value with limited additional work or effort, you're really orchestrating the journey for them that allows you to share your message. That really is the opportunity that differentiates someone that has a book versus someone that doesn't have a book. Because without it it's difficult to get that kind of charge neutral opportunity to deliver something of value to a group of people that you might not necessarily have access to otherwise. So appreciate Sam's time to get a copy of his book. As we were saying in the episode, head over to Amazon and search for on the Edge of Effectiveness by Sam Alterwill. I'm going to put a link to that in the show notes. So that's episode 97. So 90minutebooks.com podcast and look for episode 97. And really whether you're thinking about a Legion Ocean book as we typically talk about, or book just to spread a message, then reach out to us. We can walk you through the beginnings of the process, help you do it. If you decide to work with us and have your message out there engaging people and really sharing that knowledge by the summer. So with that, thank you again for listening and I will catch you in the next one.